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Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon

 
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Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/4/2008 2:51:23 AM   
SteveF2006

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline 		I am playing in the Battle for the Atlantic 2003. I have enhanced the "Run for Home" scenario by adding a few additional RED and BLUE units for an extra challenge. I have added many Rafale aircraft well as some F-22s. As I am playing, the Rafale is appearing out of nowhere and killing even the F-22s. All of a sudden, I will see a message the states "Meteors detected" and these missiles are only about 3-5 km from my aircraft when they are discovered. I never do actually "see" the aircraft unless I turn into their direction. Is anyone else having this issue?
Post #: 1
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/4/2008 4:31:29 AM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveF2006
I am playing in the Battle for the Atlantic 2003. I have enhanced the "Run for Home" scenario by adding a few additional RED and BLUE units for an extra challenge. I have added many Rafale aircraft well as some F-22s. As I am playing, the Rafale is appearing out of nowhere and killing even the F-22s. All of a sudden, I will see a message the states "Meteors detected" and these missiles are only about 3-5 km from my aircraft when they are discovered. I never do actually "see" the aircraft unless I turn into their direction. Is anyone else having this issue?


Its a stealth issue. If you think maybe the Rafale's stealth values in the DB are too generous, then you have the freedom to adjust them accordingly. My best suggestion is to do some quick research of your own on the Rafale's stealth and electronic warfare systems, and then make your own decision about whether the values need adjustment. Good hunting.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SteveF2006)
Post #: 2
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/4/2008 4:54:47 AM   
SteveF2006

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline 		Don't you agree though, the Rafale's stealth sould be no match for an F-22. Yet the Rafale wsa picking off F-22s easily in this scenario. By the way, how is it again to adjust the stealth?

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 3
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/4/2008 7:05:38 AM   
Maromak


Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I noticed the same thing on the WestPac Labyrinth scenario. At first I thought it may have just been the radar performance of the old F/A-18Cs. Later on my Wedgetail AEWs and F-18Fs were on the scene and spotting the semi stealth UCAVs at much greater ranges that the Rafales (on average). Based on my past Harpoon experience with Rafales this was a little different. Surely the RCS of the UCAV is smaller that the Rafale. I am assuming that the Rafale was not using ECM at the time as I didn't get an ELINT hit. Has anyone come across overly stealthy Eurofighters?

Challenging but I don't think I'd adjust the Rafale stealth db value.

(in reply to SteveF2006)
Post #: 4
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/4/2008 3:02:33 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveF2006
Don't you agree though, the Rafale's stealth sould be no match for an F-22. Yet the Rafale wsa picking off F-22s easily in this scenario. By the way, how is it again to adjust the stealth?


The F-22 is stealthier than the Rafale in the DB.

You can adjust the values in the RCS field using the Platform Editor (PE).

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SteveF2006)
Post #: 5
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/5/2008 4:41:49 AM   
trader

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/5/2007
Status: offline 		"Don't you agree though, the Rafale's stealth sould be no match for an F-22. Yet the Rafale was picking off F-22s easily in this scenario."

Something I learnt the hard way over the years is to drop the F-22's down to LOW altitude when in the contested region, or use several small groups in mutual support, high up with radars on. I use supercruise to get them out there quicker (and home quicker), and to close the range and kill previously detected A/C. I used to fly them up HIGH with radars off thinking their R/F stealth was enough - and scratch my head as they would explode randomly. It is easy to forget they are as big as an F-15 and can be seen from several dozen miles in ideal conditions, from an A/C down low which they themselves cannot see. The Rafale at LOW alt has the perfect sensor/weapon combo (OSF/Mica IR and now the lethal Meteor) to kill almost anything - as long as it stays passive. Once she lights up she is toast. When I fight them I hope for a suicidal attack on my CSG/SAG/Base with the Rafales. Once they are dead, the French CVN soon follows. Otherwise it is a slow, expensive process, with Meteors claiming nearly everything in the sky with its' radar on or at HIGH altitude.

Outright Stealth/RCS is probably not the issue. It may be that the APG-77 range and probability of detection is not represented that well vs the Rafale. 150Nm with that massive radar aperture, while other AESA's (APG-79/80/81) with smaller apertures have a better range and probability of detection. 150Nm outright = at best 50Nm against a Vsmall target, and Rafale is a 4.5Gen fighter. However, this is all IMHO.

None of this is a criticism of HCE or those who have made it what it is. I waited for a long time for it to come out (getting by with HC2002 Gold) and I am glad I did. It is excellent, and I am sure it will get better over time with continued support. I am getting back into it, and have started with the Original Battlesets - and WESTPACK. Those French UCAV's are lethal. They killed my LPA despite every escort radiating. First detection was a clutch of AASM's at about 7Nm. Foolish UCAV's then closed and got themselves killed. Having a ship I have been on sunk was a disturbing experience. The Collins Class SSG later killed the entire French CVBG, but is was a hollow victory.

Thanks for a great game. I am going to spend far too many hours on it in the coming months ;-> .

(in reply to SteveF2006)
Post #: 6
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/5/2008 5:21:05 PM   
SteveF2006

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice. Come to think of it, all of the times my aircraft were whot down, they were at high altitude with Radars lit up. I guess I just thought that they would detect the Rafales as they detect the Euro fighters, Flankers, Fulcrums and other OPFOR aircraft. My bad!

(in reply to trader)
Post #: 7
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/5/2008 5:36:17 PM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		Well, it would be nice if there was a LPI flag or somesuch for radars, the F-22 in the game gives itself away too easily when the radar is on.  It is still tough to localize but obviously not as tough as you'd like ;)

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SteveF2006)
Post #: 8
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/5/2008 7:56:56 PM   
Rebel Yell


Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline 		Exactly.  Without LPI radar, the F-22 will never show its true capability here.

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 9
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/12/2008 7:25:44 PM   
SteveF2006

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline 		"Something I learnt the hard way over the years is to drop the F-22's down to LOW altitude when in the contested region"
Thanks Trader! I have been trying some new tactics with both the F-22s and the F-35s with some great results! It really has added a new twist to the game for me. That is why I have been playing it for so many years, there is always something new to try!

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 10
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/14/2008 7:09:34 PM   
BlindOldUmp


Posts: 104
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: The North Coast of the USA
Status: offline 		For those of your - (Like Me ) - who blinked & said LPI ??
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA407011

I also suggest access to an Unabridged Dictionary

(in reply to Rebel Yell)
Post #: 11
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/16/2008 1:42:02 AM   
SmittyG

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Could we get the equivalent of an LPI radar by including an appropriate jammer in all the F-22 Loadouts ?

Smitty

(in reply to BlindOldUmp)
Post #: 12
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/16/2008 1:52:39 AM   
Maromak


Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I suppose a jammer would achieve the same effect as LPI however...wouldn't a jammer(and the radar as jammer and radar are currently tied to each other) show up on any ESM set. Even if in HCCE it were possible to only activate ECM/jamming seperately from radar, it is still basically a point source emitting RF. (HoJ missiles etc etc)

LPI, as I understand it, should only show up on the most advanced ESM kits and even then would be very difficult to fix/locate.

(in reply to SmittyG)
Post #: 13
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/16/2008 4:06:39 AM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: smitty
Could we get the equivalent of an LPI radar by including an appropriate jammer in all the F-22 Loadouts ?
Smitty


The F-22's LPI radar is actually supposedly capable of jamming, but thats another topic. The problem with the suggestion is that (1) the radar has to be active for the jammer to be active; and (2) opposing ESM would still detect the jamming, as Maromak points out.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SmittyG)
Post #: 14
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/16/2008 5:58:03 AM   
SmittyG

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		It would seem that the only time you would be interested in an LPI radar is when the radar is on.

I don't know the logic for the jamming, but when playing I don't see aircraft coming after the jamming aircraft. That would seem to imply that, even if opposing aircraft are aware that jamming is going on, they don't seem to be able to locate it. This would seem to be similar to the characteristics of an LPI radar.

Smitty

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 15
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/16/2008 5:14:14 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline 		Hehe, well, as you know, the whole point of a "low probability of intercept" (LPI) radar is not to advertise your presence, but still get a look at the other guy. You wouldn't really be gaining stealth by trying to model an LPI radar by using a jammer. I'd rather try and figure out a way to actually model an LPI radar.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SmittyG)
Post #: 16
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/17/2008 2:44:20 AM   
Maromak


Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Perhaps as a work around for the game is it possible to implement a 'limited god-mode'(tm)? This would allow the unit (F-22) to see all air units within a certain radius without selecting active radar e.g. just another radar/sonar button. You could probably get away with just having LPI enabled all the time unless there were 'counter LPI ESM' units in the scenario and in that situation you may want to turn off your LPI.

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 17
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/17/2008 4:01:41 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		Nobody has said how easy it is to just add a flag, THANK YOU! 

In this case it actually would be easy, why I don't want to do it is because we'd be re-doing it shortly afterwards.  The better approach is to at least do a generational model (Generation 1 ESM, Generation 1 Radar, Generation 2 ESM, Generation 2 Radar, Gen 2 Radar LPI, ...). 

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Maromak)
Post #: 18
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/17/2008 6:15:25 AM   
Maromak


Posts: 1030
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Great idea Tony. Also different ESM generations would allow a designer to differentiate between a fighter, shipboard, land-based, or dedicated ESM collection aircraft which, as I understand it, are currently all the same.

(in reply to TonyE)
Post #: 19
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/17/2008 5:59:41 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline 		This is something we've been thinking about for awhile, but I didn't want to say anything that might look like I was volunteering Tony for the effort, but now that he's spoken up...

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Maromak)
Post #: 20
RE: Why is the Rafale so tough in Harpoon - 1/18/2008 12:37:53 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		I know better than to post like I did, shame on me!

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 21
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