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Fighter Land Attack - 1/11/2008 1:59:53 AM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		I was just posting my 2 cents on tac air as regards the CA bonus and had a thought..........

Towards the end of WWII the fighter/bomber became the predominant air tool used to support the ground war, so why not increase the world standard on fighter land attack in order to make it possible for this unit type to have a bigger impact on ground targets? With the main mods featuring a build time of 3 seasons, this does not seem an unreasonable request. I understand that the purpose for the increase in production time was to decrease fighter builds and that implementing this LA WS change might in some way defeat that goal.......just a thought.

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"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
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Post #: 1
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/11/2008 3:51:45 AM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline 		I think it would be unwise to make it cheaper for fighters to upgrade their LA. Have you forgotten they get a bonus on airfield attacks? Just wondering. Right now players have to weight the high cost of upgrading fighter LA vs its benefit on airfield attacks. In strategies were a player upgrades his fighter LA he has almost no need for bomber support to clear out opposing air. Therefore the cost should remain high. 

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Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

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RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/11/2008 2:25:18 PM   
GKar


Posts: 617
Joined: 5/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lebatron

I think it would be unwise to make it cheaper for fighters to upgrade their LA. Have you forgotten they get a bonus on airfield attacks? Just wondering. Right now players have to weight the high cost of upgrading fighter LA vs its benefit on airfield attacks. In strategies were a player upgrades his fighter LA he has almost no need for bomber support to clear out opposing air. Therefore the cost should remain high. 

I wasn't aware of that. What kind of bonus is there for fighters during airfield attacks?

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Post #: 3
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/11/2008 4:30:09 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline 		8.7.1 Air Unit Land Attack Adjustments caused by target type
The following adjustments are made for air units attacking fixed target types:
- Tactical Bomber and Carrier Air units have their Land Attack attributes reduced by one
when attacking rail targets.
- Tactical Bomber, Fighter, and Carrier Air units have their Land Attack attributes reduced
by three when attacking Resource Centers or Factories.
- Fighter Air units have their Land Attack attributes increased by one when attacking
Airfields.
8.7.2 Airfield Attacks
Air units other than Fighters, bombed on the ground during an Airfield attack, will defend with
an Evasion attribute of 5 and will get NO Armor benefit (Fighters use their normal Evasion). Air
units will not have their Evasion modified for any other reason when bombed on the ground
during an Airfield attack.

This special rule gives fighters an LA of 3 to hit a 15 if a bomber is the target. Right now to get LA 4 nations have to pay double normal cost to upgrade. Upping the WS on fighter LA would make it cheap to increase this and therefore it would almost always be done by the German player. Kiss the RAF goodbye if the WS was changed.


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Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

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RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/11/2008 8:51:42 PM   
SGT Rice

 

Posts: 653
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline 		Christian raises a good point though that the WA were using a lot of high performance single seaters (Typhoon, P47, etc) as dedicated ground support units during the last year of the war. Perhaps in AWD game terms these units wouldn't be considered fighters (since that wasn't their primary mission) but rather they're TAC with superior evasion and air-to-air ratings?

If the WS for TAC air-to-air was raised from it's current value of 4 to a value of 6, and a random tech event (call it the Typhoon) was introduced for the WA in 1943 that techs up the evasion and air-to-air ratings of WA TAC, then we could see a situation where the late war WA would have TAC that could hold it's own in a dogfight.

The boost in points would have to be pretty hefty, at least on the order of the LST/Higgins boat/jet engines events, perhaps it would even require two random tech events.

Oh yeah, it would also require new unit art !!! (that's reason enough to do it right there)

< Message edited by SGT Rice -- 1/11/2008 9:02:27 PM >

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RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/11/2008 10:00:55 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline 		I believe the British tac air unit is the Typhoon, is it not? So for a long time now I've assumed that the Typhoon, P47, etc were rolled into the tac-air group.

Unless Brian makes the the random tech events mod-able like the political events, no new tech events, like the one you just thought, will be made.


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Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to SGT Rice)
Post #: 6
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/12/2008 7:42:56 AM   
SGT Rice

 

Posts: 653
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline 		Given the existing evasion and air-to-air ratings of WA tac air, the Typhoons/P47s are obviously not rolled into these units from a simulation standpoint.


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Post #: 7
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/12/2008 8:28:12 AM   
christian brown


Posts: 1441
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Vista, CA
Status: offline 		Not to beat a dead horse..............but...........
Is it just me or isn't it true that most enemy aircraft destroyed were destroyed by fighters both on the ground and in the air?
Shouldn't fighters be really good at attacking other aircraft on the ground.......you know, strafing planes on runways.........I can't see a real NEED to have bombers to try to take out the enemy air force.......you ought to be able to accomplish this with fighters - and fighters ought to be able to be teched up to LA w/o exorbitant cost so that they have a chance to fulfill their historical role more easily......As I understand it, bombers typically sought to crater the opposition's airfields and not really expected to hit many planes on the ground.
I'm not advocating higher starting LA levels, just a way for fighter air to achieve them at a reasonable cost......IF the player chooses to invest there. As it is, I can't remember anyone investing in fighter LA tech...maybe they would if it could bear cheaper fruit............I also can't really see this being over-exploited when they cost 3 to build as it is.

_____________________________

"Those who would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither and will lose both."
~ Thomas Jefferson

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RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/12/2008 6:11:11 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline 		Typhoon production was going to stop in 1940, I believe, because of its lackluster performance as a fighter. The introduction of a much better engine saved it and with that engine the Typhoon could takeoff with an impressive payload. Hence it was turned into a rather effective fighter-bomber. WS EV values for tac-air are just 1 point below that of fighters so if that was taken advantage of by players, then tac-air can have decent survivability. WS AA values of tac-air are two points below that of fighters for a good reason. You don't want them being a significant force in shooting down interceptors. Each AWD unit type has its roll. Upping AA and EV of tac-air would just cheapen the value of interceptors.


_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to christian brown)
Post #: 9
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/12/2008 6:13:03 PM   
Lebatron


Posts: 2166
Joined: 5/30/2005
From: Upper Michigan
Status: offline 		I think I'll add two tech points to fighter LA research. I'm afraid any more will make it a no-brainer to increase this tech. 

_____________________________

Jesse LeBreton, AKA Lebatron
Development team- GG's WAW A World Divided

(in reply to Lebatron)
Post #: 10
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/12/2008 6:32:23 PM   
MrQuiet

 

Posts: 805
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lebatron

I think I'll add two tech points to fighter LA research. I'm afraid any more will make it a no-brainer to increase this tech. 


I was thinking the same thing.

When I first started playing AWD I recall researching fighter LA in 2 games.
It does help in Airfield clearing in the early game but once enemy fighters get high ev it becomes almost useless.
4 dice have very low chance of scoreing 21 or 24 after flack suppression.

One other benifit was fighters had a better chance of hitting rail. (3dice to roll 12)
In the end I just considered it 'nice to have' but never can spare the PP to research for such a luxury.

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Post #: 11
RE: Fighter Land Attack - 1/19/2008 9:21:49 AM   
WanderingHead

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: GMT-8
Status: offline 		I've had lots of fun with fighters with increase LA before. It's true that after a couple of years they can't hit other fighters on the ground, but that is not the point. The point is that you can dedicate fighters to clearing the air and land of enemy air units (enemy fighters in the air, enemy bombers on the ground) and save your bombers for other stuff.

I agree with Jesse, about 2 research points is reasonable, but more than that would be too much.

(in reply to MrQuiet)
Post #: 12
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