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AI busting play - Blocking Down Field.

 
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AI busting play - Blocking Down Field. - 1/16/2008 9:56:26 AM   
Yngvai


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I discovered an AI busting play. I've attached the file as a .TXT file so you'll need to rename it to a .PLY file (Matrix forums wouldn't let me attach a .PLY file).

First, the formation is illegal...both the TE2 and R2 are up on the LOS on the right side. Second, when you run the play, the TE2 blocks downfield as the TE1 runs the pass route. The blocks occur *before* TE1 has caught the ball. TE1 ends up WIDE OPEN in a man-to-man coverage scheme as his defender is blocked by either TE2 or R2.

The play is illegal in 2 ways....the formation is illegal, then the blocking downfield before the catch is illegal. But if you run this play in a game, no penalties occur.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Marauders -- 3/12/2008 7:37:28 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: AI busting play - 1/16/2008 10:37:45 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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Seeing as this is a play I designed.... I'll reply.......

The WR lining up on the LOS next to the TE isn not an illeagal formation. IF the WR was in a down(3 pt) position then the TE wouldnt be an eligible receiver, however, the WR is in the upright, receiver stance but it doesnt matter in this play since the TE never goes past 5 yards down field, and is not thrown to. So he isnt a receiver, and doesnt go past the 5 yards allowed before the pass.
Also, any DB or defensive player can be hit or blocked on a pass play within 5 yards of the LOS BEFORE the pass. Thus the block is legal.


However, plays can be designed that block downfield before the pass, farther than 5 yrds from the LOS, and the game wont throw a penalty. Thats why I tried to ensure that the pick block happens within 5 yrds of the LOS, I like the plays I create to be legal according to real life football rules, and I try to keep my plays based on plays you will see in real life.

Edit- This play beats man to man coverage, but is very easily defeated when the defense uses zone coverage. The correct defense will stop it, so its not AI busting.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/16/2008 4:33:41 PM >

(in reply to Yngvai)
Post #: 2
RE: AI busting play - 1/16/2008 9:49:39 PM   
Yngvai


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You're completely right and I stand corrected.

I will say that I think David has done a great job with this game. I haven't discovered any major AI busters yet, which is a far cry from FBPRO.

However, as Scott_WAR says, apparently the game doesn't throw a flag if a receiver blocks more than 5 yards downfield before the throw. That might be a useful addition in future versions for David to consider.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/16/2008 10:16:08 PM   
Marauders

 

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Which playbook does this play come from?  Is it from a college playbook or a pro playbook?

Regarding the legality of the formation, it would only be legal if the player on the left end (which is in the normal tackle position) declared as eligible, and the player in the right tackle position (which is taken by the tight end) is a player without a receiver eligible number.  I doubt both are the case.

One should not confuse the place on the actual field with the nomenclature given to a player.  An end is an end whether a player who is normally called a tight end, split end, or a declared eligible tackle plays at that spot on the field for that play.  If a player normally considered a tight end plays off the line in the wing, that player is considered a wing back for the play or an H-back if there is a tight end playing the other side.

By rule, an eligible receiver must cover the tackle, and an eligible receiver cannot cover another eligible receiver.

This is a nice attempt at an unbalanced line play, but one would have to make sure that the players in the correct spots are who they should be on the depth chart, and if it was league play, it is allowed by the league.

As an unbalanced play, the player that lines up in the right tackle spot (the right tight end in this play - which would need to be a tackle in the depth chart) cannot block downfield prior to the pass.

No receiver may block downfield prior to the pass reception.  The penalty is offensive pass interference.  I see receivers block early in the NFL without the flag though, but that is the rule nevertheless. The five yard rule is for defenders.

No offensive lineman can even move downfield, across the neutral zone, until the pass is made.  In the NFL, a lineman can engage, but may not block across the line of scrimmage until the ball is caught.  The NFL officials generally do not flag linemen if the block is maintained within one yard from the LOS because the trench is somewhat fluid.  In the NCAA, a block can be engaged within one yard of the LOS, but it may not go beyond three yards.  If the engagement is lost within the three yards, the lineman cannot re-engage until the ball passed.  The penalty is ineligible receiver downfield.

In this case, the player that is right tackle (the TE on the right side in the play diagram) is an ineligible player and may not move or block downfield.  He certainly cannot block five yards downfield.

Note that because Maximum Football allows various rulesets to be used, it does not check plays for positioning.  A play designer must understand the rules they are using and create plays that do not violate those rules.  The flexibility to place players where one wants adds the responsibility for the play designer to make sure those players are legally were they may be.

Again, this is a nice attempt at an unbalanced play, but the downfield blocking is illegal.

As a side note, I actually encourage people to post potential AI busting plays, because then David and the beta team can take a look at it, but one must be careful not to assume that effective plays are AI busting plays. In this case, the play had some problems, but it wasn't an AI buster. It could be countered by another defense, and it didn't take advantage of a hole in the AI or a bug.


< Message edited by Marauders -- 1/17/2008 12:18:18 AM >

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/16/2008 10:47:18 PM   
Yngvai


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quote:

Which playbook does this play come from? Is it from a college playbook or a pro playbook?


Neither. It's from a play from someone's playbook in one of the online leagues. I discovered it while playing a game against the computer using this playbook.

But you're right it's not an AI buster....just an illegal play according to NFL rules.


(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 5
RE: A Suspect Play - 1/16/2008 11:05:51 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

Neither. It's from a play from someone's playbook in one of the online leagues. I discovered it while playing a game against the computer using this playbook.


I see.  Scott is in the league or designed the play for the league. 

quote:

But you're right it's not an AI buster ... just an illegal play according to NFL rules.


The base of the play is actually pretty good for people wanting to do unbalanced plays.  The left end will not be able to catch the ball, but this play shows that unbalanced plays can be created in the PDS.

(in reply to Yngvai)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/16/2008 11:43:40 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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Ah, after reading Marauders post I checked to make sure, and he is correct, the NFL rules state that no offensive player is allowed to block downfield prior to a pass being touched. I thought there was some exception with passes thrown behind the LOS, but dont see it mentioned in the NFL rules. Screen passes always have OL blocking downfield before the ball is caught. They release the DL, and go after LB's, which are almost always 3-5 yards past the LOS, before the pass is caught. I guess, as Marauders said, it just isnt called.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/16/2008 11:44:34 PM >

(in reply to Marauders)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/17/2008 12:26:42 AM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

I thought there was some exception with passes thrown behind the LOS, but dont see it mentioned in the NFL rules. Screen passes always have OL blocking downfield before the ball is caught.


You are correct that there is an exception, but it is just under college rules.

The reason I asked if the play was from a college or pro playbook is because under NCAA rules, only a pass across the LOS has the downfield limitation, so linemen may move downfield on a screen. The NFL does not have this distinction.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/20/2008 4:57:28 AM   
Yngvai


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quote:


By rule, an eligible receiver must cover the tackle, and an eligible receiver cannot cover another eligible receiver.


The problem is that in Max Football, you can't declare who is eligible and who is not (correct me if I'm wrong on that). In this play, the computer treats both receivers on the right side as eligible receivers by putting man coverage on both of them if you're in a M2M defense that covers every eligible receiver. So I would think the play would still be illegal in this sense.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 9
RE: A Suspect Play - 1/20/2008 6:38:11 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

The problem is that in Max Football, you can't declare who is eligible and who is not (correct me if I'm wrong on that).


One cannot declare a tackle (by player number but in the end position) eligible; that is correct.

quote:

In this play, the computer treats both receivers on the right side as eligible receivers by putting man coverage on both of them if you're in a M2M defense that covers every eligible receiver. So I would think the play would still be illegal in this sense.


By rule, an eligible number cannot cover an eligible number.  I have not seen a rule that can undeclare a player eligible.

A team would normally play a tackle (by number) at that position on the line in an unbalanced line.  By the way, I have seen the Packers run a play similar to this against the Vikings.

(in reply to Yngvai)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/20/2008 6:54:38 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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Too bad you cant replace a TE with a tackle in Max football with the depth chart.

The remote out feature is so finicky,.... sometimes working sometimes not, that the depth chart is the only reliable method of assigning players in multiplayer leagues.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/20/2008 7:56:21 PM >

(in reply to Marauders)
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RE: A Suspect Play - 1/20/2008 8:06:35 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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I think I understand the heart of what Yngvai is getting at. If you play the game in a league, you cant expect the league to police plays. With each team possibly having its own playbook, with who knows how many plays in it, you just cant ensure an "illegal" play isnt going to be used. This is why its kind of important that the game itself emnforces the rules of whichever ruleset the league is using. Otherwise, those rules cant realistically be enforced, and the game isnt quite like the game of football we all know and love.


(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 12
RE: Lineplay Rules - 1/20/2008 9:43:17 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

If you play the game in a league, you cant expect the league to police plays. With each team possibly having its own playbook, with who knows how many plays in it, you just cant ensure an "illegal" play isnt going to be used.


If the league has rules against illegal plays with penalties and enforcement, it helps players police themselves.

Some leagues have commissioners that review any new plays, and that can really help too.

quote:

This is why its kind of important that the game itself enforces the rules of whichever ruleset the league is using. Otherwise, those rules can't realistically be enforced, and the game isnt quite like the game of football we all know and love.


That is what games like Madden do; they limit the ability to create plays.  I certainly do not want those limitations.

The PDS is powerful, but if coaches don't know the rules, then there can be a problem.  It happens in the real game too.  In any case, I'd much rather have an open and unrestrictive PDS than a restricted game creation utility like many other games have.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
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RE: Lineplay Rules - 1/20/2008 9:47:53 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

Too bad you cant replace a TE with a tackle in Max football with the depth chart.


Let me goof around a bit and see what I can come up with.



< Message edited by Marauders -- 1/20/2008 11:25:19 PM >

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RE: Lineplay Rules - 1/20/2008 10:16:00 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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Good points, and also the fact that we can use custom rules throws a wrench in that also.

If you use roster view in the depth chart, you can only add TE's to the TE/SB position. If you go into formation subs view you can add TE, WR, and RB's to the TE spot.


(in reply to Marauders)
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RE: Lineplay Rules - 1/20/2008 11:29:14 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

... also the fact that we can use custom rules throws a wrench in that also.


That is a good point, the PDS allows more than just NFL or NCAA rules.  There are community members making many sorts of leagues.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
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RE: Lineplay Rules - 1/20/2008 11:43:49 PM   
Saedor


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quote:

That is what games like Madden do; they limit the ability to create plays.  I certainly do not want those limitations.


Very true. In fact, part of the fun (for me anyway) is creating NEW play rules, allowing things not normally allowed.... Thus creating a whole new kind of football game.

Hey, thats exactly what they did when they created indoor football in the '80's. :)

(in reply to Marauders)
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