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AI turn time - 1/18/2008 10:12:28 PM   
rowech

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: offline 		I've been looking for a while at this game, Total Operational Art of War, and Campaign Series. Generally, this is the game that people recommend to buy but some have cautioned the AI turn taking time might be an issue. How bad is this?
Post #: 1
RE: AI turn time - 1/18/2008 10:28:52 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		This really depends on a few things: PC speed, number of AI players, size of map.

The more AI's there are the more time between your turns.

The larger the map the longer units survive so the more units there are in a game, the longer it takes each AI to do it's turn.

The slower your PC, the longer it take the AI to think and move each unit.

Not really a very satisfying answer, but there you are. On my home PC, P4 with 1GB ram, large random games take about 5-6 minutes between turns at about mid game. On my work laptop, Core2Duo with 4GB ram, it takes about 2 minutes.



_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to rowech)
Post #: 2
RE: AI turn time - 1/18/2008 11:18:53 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I have a dual core system and it takes a LONG time. 10 minutes is a norm for me. Already had this conversation and already posted my specs. I defrag once a month and do other maintance at that time. I have current drivers. If the AI takes 100 turns it will be about 7 to 10 minutes for me. More turns, even longer.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 3
RE: AI turn time - 1/19/2008 4:53:17 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		My pc is not the newest but for AT it's ok. Normally I have to wait a few mins for the next round. I'll make myself a coffee or idy up my flat.
But today I think my pc/AI has gone haywire.
Seems to be taking hrs.
Ai turn 1377?? Still counting. Is this normal??
Russia Winter 41/42. Axis about to start rolling again.

Whats going on behind their frontline???




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 4
RE: AI turn time - 1/19/2008 7:45:09 PM   
Delyn Locksmiths


Posts: 393
Joined: 12/26/2007
Status: offline 		I don't get this. I have my business laptop, it's a year old, but no gaming machine. Won't play Europa universalis 3, won't play Medieval Total War 2, I also got a warning after installing this game, saying i didn't have enough something (memory probably), But a turn is less than 5 minutes. And even if it is 5 minutes. Who cares? I'm a bloody week waiting for my PBEM turn, Just minimise the game, and pop in here in the minute or two the AI is playing for.

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 5
RE: AI turn time - 1/20/2008 1:24:59 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Have you guys optimized your virtual memory? What is the speed of your hard drive(s)? Have you tried setting your virtual memory usage more of "cache" as opposed to "programs"??? Just a thought as when I have sluggish games I try moving around how my virtual memory works or increasing it and even sometimes decreasing it. I've read and heard that using 1-1/2 times your memory in both min and max settings helps with some games as well. I use the 2-1/2 times method sometimes and have 1gig of ram so it's around 3750 min and max, but, in some cases have had it as low as 2250 min/max. Might give it a try and report back to us. ;)

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 1/20/2008 1:25:59 PM >

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WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to Delyn Locksmiths)
Post #: 6
RE: AI turn time - 1/20/2008 8:57:28 PM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		Put a thread on the support.
Vic said it was probably a bug that caused the problem.
We'll see.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 7
RE: AI turn time - 1/20/2008 9:36:43 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		yes you where still running v1.10k. I am almost sure this was one of the bugs we catched in the public beta testing phase and it should not occur in v1.10L.

kind regards,
Vic

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 8
RE: AI turn time - 1/20/2008 9:57:35 PM   
bssybeep


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline 		Huge random map with 6 AI
Dell XPS2 Laptop: Intel Mobility 2ghz, 2g ram, winxp, Nvidia 6800 Ultra
mid game takes ~130+ ai moves per turn = ~15-20 minutes wait

A long time!  I only play AT when I multi-task.  Play a turn, click "next turn" and go do something for 15-20 mins and come back for my turn. 

It would be nice if this could be optimized to be quicker

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 9
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 12:26:19 PM   
hazxan

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/10/2007
Status: offline 		It's not so much that the AI turn is slow (although obviously it is). It's that you have nothing to look at while the AI is moving. The screen shot posted by British Exil is exactly what you see. Try staring at it for 5 minutes out of every 15 and you'll get the idea. On TOAW and many other games, you can have quite long AI turns, but it's not tedious as you get to see the AI moves and attacks.

After 5 - 10 minutes of effectively a blank screen, with AT you then have to replay the opponents move to figure out what they did. This can take another 5 minutes. If you could see the AI move as it happened, this would be a huge improvement. Opinions obviously vary, but this is the single improvement I want to see in AT.

I understand the idea of going of a tidying the house, making tea etc when the AI is err.. 'moving'. It just doesn't work for me as I find my concentration and flow of thought is broken. I'm just not a good multi-tasker (I believe I'm not the only one, but it's such a buzz word these days) and I find that both tasks get done to lower quality and I enjoy them less due to being 'fragmented' between the two.

At least the AT AI actually does something, contrasted to another recent game where the Union AI takes 8 minutes to decide it'll just do nothing.

< Message edited by NotaGrog -- 1/21/2008 12:27:19 PM >

(in reply to bssybeep)
Post #: 10
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 2:24:52 PM   
rowech

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: offline 		Might be a great game but that's definitely a turnoff for me guys.  Thanks. 

(in reply to hazxan)
Post #: 11
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 2:35:01 PM   
Lipa


Posts: 28
Joined: 12/17/2004
From: Slovenia
Status: offline 		Too bad. This is really a great game. Personally, I have no problems with waiting on the AI... But, tastes are different, I guess. Anyway, I think you'll miss quite a lot by letting this one slip past you. ;)

Cheers!

(in reply to rowech)
Post #: 12
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 2:49:16 PM   
Ande

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		I've seen the AI logs, It deals with quite much information

(in reply to Lipa)
Post #: 13
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 3:27:54 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		If you play normal sized maps with only one opponent like the Gothic Line or Africa 41 scenario then the AI does its turn in like 20-30 seconds on my machine.

The thing is that big or huge map size multiply the calculations and adding for example 6 AIs multiplies the calculating time by 6.

So if you want to have quicker scenarios you'll have to avoid huge maps with loads of AIs.

Kind regards,
Vic

(in reply to Ande)
Post #: 14
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 6:28:35 PM   
therockyfroggy

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		Playing World of Warcraft, when I get on a flight, I log out, check email, matrix, whatever....I fly a lot, I minimize a lot.....same with this game...although I do wish the turns were faster, if they aren't, I just play one on one games between the long turned many AI games.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 15
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 6:31:39 PM   
hadberz


Posts: 1629
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Moncks Corner, SC
Status: offline 		I just minimize the game when the ai is taking awhile for it's turn and come read the forums.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 16
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 6:38:53 PM   
Lipa


Posts: 28
Joined: 12/17/2004
From: Slovenia
Status: offline 		Bottomline - IMHO, AI taking long turns should *not* be the reason to decide whether or not to buy the game. There are other aspects much, much more important!

Just my 5 cents.

(in reply to hadberz)
Post #: 17
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 7:59:57 PM   
rowech

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lipa

Too bad. This is really a great game. Personally, I have no problems with waiting on the AI... But, tastes are different, I guess. Anyway, I think you'll miss quite a lot by letting this one slip past you. ;)

Cheers!


It's been between this one, Operational Art of War, and the Campaign Series and it seems the other two games don't have that kind of wait period. Perhaps I'm wrong?

(in reply to Lipa)
Post #: 18
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 8:26:50 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rowech


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lipa

Too bad. This is really a great game. Personally, I have no problems with waiting on the AI... But, tastes are different, I guess. Anyway, I think you'll miss quite a lot by letting this one slip past you. ;)

Cheers!


It's been between this one, Operational Art of War, and the Campaign Series and it seems the other two games don't have that kind of wait period. Perhaps I'm wrong?


TOAW can take as long or longer on very large scenarios.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to rowech)
Post #: 19
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 9:42:57 PM   
all5n


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		The complexity and sheer number of possibilites in this game make me boggle that one could make AI work effectively at all.

The AI can be fast.
The AI can be good.

Pick one.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 20
RE: AI turn time - 1/21/2008 11:22:50 PM   
Banquet

 

Posts: 1184
Joined: 8/23/2002
From: England
Status: offline 		I would absolutely still recommend the game, despite the AI being slow in certain situations. I'm not keen on waiting 10 minutes either so I play against 1 AI with a 50 or 60 square map. That's still a pretty big map! Even at the height of the game the AI is pretty quick.

If anything could be done to increase the AI speed (or make something watchable during the AI turn) that would be a big improvement to me, and allow me to play multiple AI's.. but it's easy to get around by making smaller maps and/or having less AI so please don't let that put you off buying the game. It's one of the most addictive wargames I've ever played! :)

PS, totally agree with all5n.. I'd rather have a good slow AI than a bad fast one.

< Message edited by Banquet -- 1/21/2008 11:23:40 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 2:38:32 AM   
dsvitak

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 8/11/2003
Status: offline 		I tend to agree with the others here.

The excellent AI MUST be thorough, otherwise, why play the game?

Multi-tasking is exactly that. Pick up a book on the Second World War. Watch Sports Center. Pay attention to the significant other. Call your mom. Pet the cat. Pet your significant other. It's all good!

(in reply to Banquet)
Post #: 22
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 2:46:39 AM   
GFeros

 

Posts: 101
Joined: 7/1/2007
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		If there is still a way, I really wish you could watch what is going on when you end your turn instead of looking at the same screen. If there is a way to include this that would be nice.

(in reply to dsvitak)
Post #: 23
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 4:05:31 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

Posts: 3396
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

It's been between this one, Operational Art of War, and the Campaign Series and it seems the other two games don't have that kind of wait period. Perhaps I'm wrong?


what hte other guy said - TOAW can take as long or longer with large scenarios.

10-15 minutes per turn happens in "whole of WW2" sized scenarios with large maps and hundreds of units - exactly like, say, Trotsky's War in TOAW.

Haven't played campaign series, but I am still regularly playing TOAW.

(in reply to GFeros)
Post #: 24
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 4:27:59 PM   
Brausepaul


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Does anyone know if AT makes use of several CPU cores? I own a quad core and wonder if this speeds up AT in a considerable amount.

(in reply to SMK-at-work)
Post #: 25
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 5:22:52 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Nope AT does not use duo or quad core. This is because i coded the application as one thread.
However owning a duo or quad core machine does allow for very smooth multitasking while the AI is calculating.

Kind regards,
Vic

(in reply to Brausepaul)
Post #: 26
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 5:32:30 PM   
Brausepaul


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Thank you very much for your answer. Do you think it might be possible to enhance threading (at least for AI calculation) in a future patch? Note: I do that this is more than a compiler switch or adding if(quadcore) { runfaster();}

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 27
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 6:07:21 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		@brausepaul,

actually using multiple threads for your caculations is not an easy thing to implement. if you want to use multiple processors the AI thought process will need to be designed in such a way that it is not linear. to be honest i dont think this will be patch material.

sorry there,
kind regards,
vic

(in reply to Brausepaul)
Post #: 28
RE: AI turn time - 1/22/2008 6:41:32 PM   
Brausepaul


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Thanks again. I was thinking the same, but without asking one can't be sure.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 29
RE: AI turn time - 1/23/2008 7:20:23 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rowech


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lipa

Too bad. This is really a great game. Personally, I have no problems with waiting on the AI... But, tastes are different, I guess. Anyway, I think you'll miss quite a lot by letting this one slip past you. ;)

Cheers!


It's been between this one, Operational Art of War, and the Campaign Series and it seems the other two games don't have that kind of wait period. Perhaps I'm wrong?


They also don't have this kind of an AI, so, you're losing out big time if you don't get this one over them. Just don't play huge maps and umpteen jillion AI's is that so hard to not do? Back in the day we were lucky to have one opponent to play against, so, just play against one AI until you find the optimum level of time between turns. Then add another and see how that goes. Once you reach the I can't take it anymore stage then stick with those parameters just below that and there you'll have a great game with enough AI opponents to keep you challenged for a lifetime without taking all your time out of it. ;)

_____________________________

WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?



(in reply to rowech)
Post #: 30
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