Something for debate

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Something for debate

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> Something for debate

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Something for debate - 1/22/2008 3:58:50 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

just got finished with a new book, The last flight of the Luftwaffe (by Adrian Weir)

good book, interesting point of view and new info on what "really" happened

but the question is, would the idea of worked, did it have a chance ?

one of the ideas, or what most have thought, was that this unit, or idea was part of the Selbstopfermanner (self sacrifice men)

but the Schulungslehrgang 'Elbe' was from the beginning, an idea that the pilots would have a chance to get back from the mission (not the best chance, but at least a chance)

and just in case, if you don't know what I am talking about, maybe the title of Rammkommando may make more sense

I'll give you all a chance before I start talking more :)

_____________________________

Post #: 1

RE: Something for debate - 1/22/2008 6:23:46 PM

BlindBat

Posts: 12
Joined: 4/14/2007
Status: offline

I'm guessing that you're refeering to the late-war idea of LW pilots who flew up to intentionally ram a bomber and bring it down. I've heard them refeered to as Raubvogel (Bird of Prey).

I recall that the old LucasArt game "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" had an interview with a history professor (name eludes me) who mentioned them, as well as an interview with Walter Krupinski ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Krupinski , also links to a good interview with him) who describes the "Raubvogel" as a very heavily armored FockeWulf designed to approach the bomber from behind, trusting to its heavy armor plating to provide protection against the gunners. If the FockeWulf's guns did not bring the bomber down, the LW pilot would then ram the rudder of the bomber.

Krupinski particularily said "...and in my opinion it was good armor, it was all up front where it protected the pilot. I saw a lot of pilots bail out after they had rammed the bomber, because if they did it right they had a good chance of survival."
Sadly, I've lost my the paper manual that came with Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe (to my great regret), so I'm unable to confirm that quote, though for some reason that sentence stuck in my head and I'm 95% certain that its verbatim correct.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 2

RE: Something for debate - 1/22/2008 6:43:48 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

basicly, your on the right track, but the 190s were more the Stormvogals (?) (Stormstaffel 1)that is confused with the Elbe

but, the 190 pilots were to sign a paper saying that they would close with the enemy, and if they did not knock it down with there weapons, they would then ram, but they were never really held to it, and as most of the pilots would say, if I get close enough, my cannons will do the job

the Elbe were to fly 109s, that had almost everything taken off of them, only one MG with 60 rounds of ammo (to take out the rear gunner if needed) the lack of armor and guns/radio was felt that they could then out speed the US escourts, they were to then dive and pull up, taking out the rudder of the bomber, and then bail out

which, of course, the real fighters and jets were to confuse and keep the escourts busy, the jets in fact did a good job, making a number of passes and not firing, and then running away, which dragged a number of escourts with them (more then a few fighter pilots and bomber pilots remarked on how odd the jets were acting)

(one of the 109s that hit a bomber, slipped off afterward and spun/floated away,(engine being ruined) the pilot trying to get out, but the cockpit was jammed, a P-51 dove down on him and fired, the shells blowing the cockpit free, and he was then able to bail out, of course, he spent the end of the war in the hosp)

_____________________________

(in reply to BlindBat)

Post #: 3

RE: Something for debate - 1/22/2008 8:27:10 PM

Rebel Yell

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline

IMHO, it was a poor strategy that could never have had telling results, as the number of pilots killed or injured would have been even higher than in normal interceptor units, and pilots were the one thing the Luftwaffe didn't have.

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 4

RE: Something for debate - 1/23/2008 12:19:50 AM

histgamer

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline

Rebel Yell the bigger problem was not having pilots who could fight. I mean they had guys who could be cannon fodder, the problem was they ran outta good pilots, one doesnt have to be a good pilot to crash into another plane.

That said I tend to agree that it would have proved a poor strat.

(in reply to Rebel Yell)

Post #: 5

RE: Something for debate - 1/23/2008 1:21:46 PM

soeren01

Posts: 393
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Bayern
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

one doesnt have to be a good pilot to crash into another plane.
.

Here I disagree.
A bad pilot had a much lesser chance to penetrate the Fighter screen. Hitting another airplane ( a small, fast movin Target ) is not easy, especially if you are under fire.
What was the hit rate for the Japanese kamikaze planes ? And compared to airplanes a ship is a big, slow target.

_____________________________

soeren01, formerly known as Soeren
CoG FoF
PacWar WIR BoB BTR UV WITP WITE WITW

(in reply to histgamer)

Post #: 6

RE: Something for debate - 1/23/2008 2:31:14 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

remember, the plan at the beginning and all of the what was promised, is not what was given, when the mission finally happened, so when we look at what happened, it looks very poor

Hajo asked for pilots to step forward, over 2000 pilots wanted to join !

the High Command, stated they would give up 1500 109s for the mission (not counting the Jets and 190s and 109s for the confusion and to attack/distrack the escourts)

plus the main idea behind the plan, is the only chance the LW and Germay has, is the jets, but with out a chance to get them, get them out and train, they were not going to be of help, one massive slap, if the US could be hit, and hit HARD enough, to make them stop and think, to wonder what was going on, to change there plans (but of course, the ground war was moving much too fast by now, the air war was really all but over)

as small as the real attack was, and in places it got slaughtered, but they got though, and they did major damage, again, only some 20 bombers were lost, but lots and lots of them were damaged, and alot of them took major damage (and this is at a time, when most of the raids were taking almost no losses, 14 bombers lost but that was a raid to Berlin)

which, when the plans were made, the loss rate was giving as a 10% chance to make it back, over 67% of the pilots who took off, made it back (a few of them, after hitting a bomber)

also, the US High Command made a major attempt to make sure all the crews knew that the planes seen to crash into the bombers were bad luck, with the pilots killed making there attacks, they were very scared that the idea of the LW trying to ram would take hold

_____________________________

(in reply to soeren01)

Post #: 7

RE: Something for debate - 1/23/2008 10:19:51 PM

histgamer

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline

Also when you look at kami's in the pacific there was a heck of alot more firepower being poured into the attacking japs, they had to penitrate radar guided cap patrols. (B-17s didnt have radar did they?) Then they had to go through a much tougher flak belt with proximity fuses on the shells that were being fired, 50 cal rounds were not proximity rounds and there was alot more rounds going after the japanese than there would have been going after the germans.

Not saying the germans wouldnt have been bloodied but its not as difficult as you made it out to be, one doesnt have to be an expert to do it soeren.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 8

RE: Something for debate - 1/24/2008 1:47:38 PM

Joe D.

Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

... one of the ideas, or what most have thought, was that this unit, or idea was part of the Selbstopfermanner (self sacrifice men) but the Schulungslehrgang 'Elbe' was from the beginning, an idea that the pilots would have a chance to get back from the mission (not the best chance, but at least a chance) ...

The History Channel's "Dogfights" did an entire show on this: the conclusion was that very few pilots survived a successful strike, and the results of these few strikes were negligible, i.e., it wasn't as if the Germans were flying into a carrier and causing hundreds of casualties and millions of dollars of damage.

Another too little, too late Teutonic tactic.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 9

RE: Something for debate - 1/24/2008 3:16:06 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

yea, I seen part of that, wasn't able to see the whole thing

but

remember, the attack as planned, never went off, over all, it wasn't even a 10th of what was offered for the attack

and while yes, not many lived, a number of them did get out, being shot in there chutes as they floated to earth

a number of bombers took massive damage, but were still able to return, either home or to France to land, more attackers and the cripples would not of made it home

and again, part of the point is, they did better then most of the standard attacks were doing by this stage of the war

which when all is said and done, to my mind, I would still rather of seen (if I was the commander) 1500 fully armed planes sent up for the attack, with the 50-75 jets and the rest of the standard Reich defenders to go after the escourts

but, poorly trained pilots either way are not going to do much

_____________________________

(in reply to Joe D.)

Post #: 10