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Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 3:04:17 AM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

10.3.1 Depot in a Friendly City Area
A new depot may be placed in an area containing a friendly controlled unbesieged city, in that major power’s territory.


I'm Spain and France is at war with me. I've defended Madrid and I'm pushing back. France had taken San Sebastian and left a garrison. I should not be able to place a depot there at start of my Land Phase without any friendly corps, yes?






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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 4:13:41 AM   
Marshall Ellis


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Status: offline 		I thought this was OK in your home nation?



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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 6:08:14 AM   
gwheelock

 

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Status: offline 		Its not a "frendly controlled" city if there is an enemy garrison (French in this case) in it - even if its
your home nation - its "occupied territory".

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 7:30:33 AM   
zaquex


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Status: offline 		There is nothing to draw supply from, the city is not atm to be concidered as a valid supply source for spain and therefore it could only be placed in san sebastian if it could connect to an existing supply chain.

The interesting question would be if it would be allowed to place it there without a unmoved friendly corp, I would lean towards saying no but I could see people argue differently.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 1:45:20 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Status: offline 		Correct, this is NOT a friendly controlled city.
Is there a depot in (Saragosa?) where the Spanish stack is?



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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 2:39:22 PM   
pzgndr

 

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Status: offline 		Yes, I had a depot in Saragosa, but that would have been irrelevant if I wanted to place a depot in my home province of San Sebastion if I also had the friendly controlled unbeseiged city there.

San Sebastian is clearly not a friendly controlled unbeseiged city in my home territory in this case, so I shouldn't be able to place a depot there.  Certainly not without a friendly corps in the area.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 3:24:13 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Status: offline 		I'm a little confused on this one???

The Saragosa depot (source) is two areas away. This should make the San Sebastian depot valid.
The unbesieged corps requirement only applies to placing depots outside of its territory, right?



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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 3:43:48 PM   
pzgndr

 

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Status: offline 		Maybe we have a couple of issues here.  San Sebastian city is controlled and garrisoned by France, so since it is NOT an area containing a friendly controlled unbesieged city in my territory then I should not be able to place a depot there per 10.3.1.  That's how I read the rule.  The other issue I note is that the Selected Area Info box shows Spain controls the area, whereas France controls the city.  Why should Spain control that area?  France should control both the garrisoned city and the unoccupied area.  If I was besieging San Sebastian and had a Spanish corps in the area I could understand having control of the area and being able to place a depot there, but that is definitely not the case here and should get fixed.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 5:06:19 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Status: offline 		The area control is a reflection of the current politics. This really never changes unless the province is conquered or ceded and really has no effect on this scenario as it is today. Question is ... is the San Sebastian depot placement valid since it is 2 areas away from a valid source??? I'm not sure at this point...???

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 5:11:11 PM   
zaquex


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quote:

The unbesieged corps requirement only applies to placing depots outside of its territory, right?


I think not, it can be placed in friendly controlled supply sources but to place a depot in "open terrain" you need a valid supply chain to connect with and a unmoved corp even in friendly territory at least thats how i remember it. In San Sebastian there is no supply source, no connecting supply chain, no unmoved corp.

quote:

 Maybe we have a couple of issues here.  San Sebastian city is controlled and garrisoned by France, so since it is NOT an area containing a friendly controlled unbesieged city in my territory then I should not be able to place a depot there per 10.3.1.  That's how I read the rule.  The other issue I note is that the Selected Area Info box shows Spain controls the area, whereas France controls the city.  Why should Spain control that area?  France should control both the garrisoned city and the unoccupied area.  If I was besieging San Sebastian and had a Spanish corps in the area I could understand having control of the area and being able to place a depot there, but that is definitely not the case here and should get fixed.


Agreed


< Message edited by zaquex -- 2/8/2008 5:14:51 PM >

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 5:38:29 PM   
pzgndr

 

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Status: offline 		OK I can understand the area control issue since Spain still controls the province. But clearly 10.3.1 does not apply since the city is enemy controlled.

quote:

10.3.3 Depots in Supply Chains
A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this turn)
depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain.


10.3.3 should not apply either, since I have no unmoved friendly corps in the area. We do need an unmoved corps in an area to place a depot during the Land Phase, yes? Intuitively, I would not expect to be able to create a friendly depot right outside an enemy garrison without friendly troops present. Muleskinners are not usually that bold.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 6:07:24 PM   
zaquex


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Status: offline 		I would say that anyone controlling an unbesieged city(for this purpose and context I define besieging as a corp hostile to the city garrisson in the area the city is located in) also controls the area where the city is located. 

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 7:45:40 PM   
ndrose

 

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Status: offline 		I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 10:15:59 PM   
AresMars

 

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Status: offline 		In this case, the Supply Source (the city) is no longer in Spanish control and normally would not be able to have a SD placed there.

If a CORPS was present (from last turn; seiging or not), then it would be valid to place a SD there as the SD in Saragosa, and the CORPS to defend its creation would be valid.

ndrose has it correct - I am just repeating....

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 11:15:22 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Status: offline 		Hey guys:

In original EiA:
7.2.3 states that I can place a depot within two unblocked areas of an already existing depot (Saragosa in this case)
7.2.3.3.2 states that the corps is only need when placing outise of the MPs territory???

I can see no restrictions on having a corps in the MP's territory???

Am I missing something?

HELP!



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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/8/2008 11:44:08 PM   
AresMars

 

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Status: offline 		Marshall,
 
EIA 7.2.1 DEPOT IN A FRIENDLY CITY AREA: A new depot may be placed in an area containing a friendly controlled unbesieged city, in that major power's territory.
 
The important words in this line is FRIENDLY CONTROLLED.  In this case the city is French occupied.
 
EIA 7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain.
 
EIA 7.2.3.1 SUPPLY SOURCE DEFINITION: A "supply source" is any unbesieged controlled city area in a major power s home nation or controlled minor country that is unoccuppied by enemy forces and that contains a depot.
 
EIA 7.2.3.2 SUPPLY CHAIN DEFINITION: A "supply chain" is a series of one major power's depots that are placed no more than two areas apart and lead back to a supply source of that major power.
EIA 7.2.3.2.1: A "valid" supply chain is one where the intervening areas between any of a supply chain's depots are not blocked by the presence of unbesieged enemy corps, garrisons, guerrillas, cossacks and/or freikorps (EXCEPTION: these enemy forces do not block an area if that area also contains an unbesieged friendly corps or garrison).
 
In this case there is an unbesieged garrison in the city and would block supply.

Does that help?

Does anyone else disasgree with this understanding of Supply?  (Hey, this is Empires in Arguements...  )

 

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 12:34:41 AM   
ndrose

 

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Status: offline 		Uhh...hmm. I think technically Marshall's right, though it is a very strange rule.

The rule AresMars cites says garrisons in the *intervening* areas block the supply chain, but it doesn't say anything about the depot areas themselves. In contrast, rule 7.2 (the basic one about depot creation) offers a similar list of things that prevent depot creation, but garrisons are not on the list: "Depots may not be placed in areas containing unbesieged enemy corps, guerrillas, freikorps or cossacks".

Maybe an oversight, but it does seem to read the way Marshall says.

Nathan Rose

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 12:58:56 AM   
Monadman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

Uhh...hmm. I think technically Marshall's right, though it is a very strange rule.

The rule AresMars cites says garrisons in the *intervening* areas block the supply chain, but it doesn't say anything about the depot areas themselves.


By allowing the placement of a depot in a city area in their own territory in which the city is enemy controlled would mean that you are allowing for the placement of an invalid depot. The rules do not specifically say you cannot place an invalid depot (only that invalid depots do not need to be removed) and EiA 7.2.3.2.1 is a little vague, but the glossary definition for a valid supply chain is quite clear:

. . . . No area in a valid supply chain, including the intervals between depots, may contain any unbesieged enemy corps, cossack, freikorps, guerillas or garrison unless it also contains an unbesieged friendly corps or garrison or unbesieged allied corps or garrison.

If Marshall is insistent on allowing for this placement then that depot should be built as invalid (which makes no sense whatsoever).

Richard


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 1:09:28 AM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

Uhh...hmm. I think technically Marshall's right, though it is a very strange rule.


Yes I agree. I would think 10.3.1 not being satisfied would override 10.3.3 being allowed, but I guess I have discovered a minor loophole here.

I do not see this as a major issue one way or another, just strange.

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 2:49:31 AM   
Jimmer

 

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Status: offline 		No, Marshall is still incorrect on this one. The problem is that there is a word missing from the "Supply Source Definition" in the manual, which clouds matters. It SHOULD read "A 'supply source' is any unbesieged FRIENDLY-controlled ...". 10.3.3 cannot stand without the word "friendly", because otherwise it would allow one to use a ceded province's city to build a depot.

For example, Prussia surrenders to France, giving up Magdeburg as a peace condition. If the word "friendly" is not present in the supply source definition of 10.3.3, then Prussia can build a depot in Magdeburg.

NOTE: This rule also could be corrected by adding the word "unceded" somewhere, but I'm not going to do ALL of your homework for you.

Also missing (or, at least, I can't find it) is the rule that says you can build a depot with any corps counter if it would make a legal supply chain. But, that is irrelevant here, since there are no corps counters present at all.

So, a depot cannot be PLACED here under the circumstances in the picture.

HOWEVER, this situation COULD arise in normal gameplay:

France besieges the city, breaks in, and leaves a garrison behind.
Spain later besieges the city, fails to break or destroy the french force, and so is left outside the city.
Spain, on a later turn, builds a depot in this area.
Finally, Spain leaves the area completely, but leaves the depot behind.

So, the picture, by itself, is not illegal. However, the description the OP used of the events makes it so.

IMO

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 3:23:55 AM   
zaquex


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quote:

HOWEVER, this situation COULD arise in normal gameplay:

France besieges the city, breaks in, and leaves a garrison behind.
Spain later besieges the city, fails to break or destroy the french force, and so is left outside the city.
Spain, on a later turn, builds a depot in this area.
Finally, Spain leaves the area completely, but leaves the depot behind.

So, the picture, by itself, is not illegal. However, the description the OP used of the events makes it so.


Your perfectly right

The depot is not in itself illegal, its the placement of it that is the problem. As a matter of fact once placed a depot never check its own legality, it only checks if its connected to a supply source. A depot is only removed by choice or by force - the only exception from this is a depot placed on a ship at sea that moves, but even this can be seen as a its being removed by choice/force depending on circumstances.

< Message edited by zaquex -- 2/9/2008 3:25:29 AM >

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 1:39:40 PM   
delatbabel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Yes, I had a depot in Saragosa, but that would have been irrelevant if I wanted to place a depot in my home province of San Sebastion if I also had the friendly controlled unbeseiged city there.

San Sebastian is clearly not a friendly controlled unbeseiged city in my home territory in this case, so I shouldn't be able to place a depot there. Certainly not without a friendly corps in the area.


This is where the argument fails, as per rule 7.2.3 with exception 7.2.3.3.2:

quote:


7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain.


San Sebastian is within 2 areas of Saragosa and therefore you may place a depot there. The reason you think you can't do that without a friendly corps in the area is because of this rule:

quote:


7.2.3.3.2: For a major power to place a new depot outside of its own territory, an unbesieged corps of that major power must be in that area.


However San Sebastian is not outside of your territory, and therefore you do not need to have an unbesieged corps in that area. You can place a depot there whether it is a supply source or not (it is not) because it is within your home territory and within two areas of an existing depot in a supply chain.


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 1:41:45 PM   
delatbabel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer
No, Marshall is still incorrect on this one. The problem is that there is a word missing from the "Supply Source Definition" in the manual, which clouds matters. It SHOULD read "A 'supply source' is any unbesieged FRIENDLY-controlled ...". 10.3.3 cannot stand without the word "friendly", because otherwise it would allow one to use a ceded province's city to build a depot.


No, I disagree. Marshall is correct. San Sebastian is not a supply source and so the "Supply Source Definition" doesn't matter. San Sebastian is within two areas of an existing depot in a supply chain, and hence a depot can be placed there according to rule 7.2.3 as a depot in a supply chain.


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 1:44:16 PM   
delatbabel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

Uhh...hmm. I think technically Marshall's right, though it is a very strange rule.


Yes I agree. I would think 10.3.1 not being satisfied would override 10.3.3 being allowed, but I guess I have discovered a minor loophole here.

I do not see this as a major issue one way or another, just strange.


No, 10.3.1 (placing a depot in a supply source) and 10.3.3 (placing a depot along a supply chain) are valid alternatives -- the fact that one is not satisfied does not override the other. It is clearly intended by the rules that you can (turn 1) build a depot in a city and then (turn 2) build another depot 2 areas away from it, as part of the supply chain, whether there is a city there or not. On turn 2 if you were trying to build the depot outside of your home nation you would need a corps there. If it is being built inside your home nation you do not need a corps.


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 1:46:16 PM   
delatbabel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose


Not quite correct. If it is inside your home nation you do *not* need to have a corps there to place the depot. So you need one of three things, either (a) a corps, (b) a home nation city, or (c) an area within two areas of another depot inside your home nation, with or without a corps. Spain has (c) and therefore is legally entitled to build the depot (as the city garrison watch on in hunger).


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 2:40:39 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel


quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose


Not quite correct. If it is inside your home nation you do *not* need to have a corps there to place the depot. So you need one of three things, either (a) a corps, (b) a home nation city, or (c) an area within two areas of another depot inside your home nation, with or without a corps. Spain has (c) and therefore is legally entitled to build the depot (as the city garrison watch on in hunger).



I do not belive (c) is correct, atleast not in EIANW.

Regards
Bresh

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 2:51:40 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

No, 10.3.1 (placing a depot in a supply source) and 10.3.3 (placing a depot along a supply chain) are valid alternatives


At this point I'm not questioning the validity of these two rules. However, 10.3.3 could be reconsidered to account for the presence of an enemy unit in the area. Technically the rule may not prevent depot placement in this case, but perhaps it should? The unbeseiged enemy garrison should have enough local control to prevent it. This is a case where EiANW can make a modest change to clarify things.


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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 4:21:25 PM   
zaquex


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Status: offline 		7.2.1 DEPOT IN A FRIENDLY CITY AREA: A new depot may be placed in an area containing a friendly controlled unbesieged city, in that major power's territory.
 
implies you cant place a depot in san sebastian
 
Personally from reading all the depot rules I think the word garrisson is missing in:
 
7.2 1 THE DEPOT CREATION/REMOVAL STEP ...Depots may not be placed in areas containing unbesieged enemy corps, guerrillas, freikorps or cossacks (unless an unbesieged corps of the major power placing the depot is also in that area)...
 
It seems to be implied by:
 
7.2.3.2 SUPPLY CHAIN DEFINITION: A "supply chain" is a series of one major power's depots that are placed no more than two areas apart and lead back to a supply source of that major power.

7.2.3.2.1: SUPPLY SOURCE DEFINITION: A "valid" supply chain is one where the intervening areas between any of a supply chain's depots are not blocked by the presence of unbesieged enemy corps, garrisons, guerrillas, cossacks and/or freikorps (EXCEPTION: these enemy forces do not block an area if that area also contains an unbesieged friendly corps or garrison).

If its true that a garrisson blocks supply as per 7.2.3.2.1 then it would be strange that the restriction is weaker for placing a depot than for blocking a supply line and to me it makes logical sense that placement of a depot in san sebastian should be illegal without a corp.

And thats what "7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain." actually says if you read it carefully. 

< Message edited by zaquex -- 2/9/2008 4:25:38 PM >

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 4:29:53 PM   
Trin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel


quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

I don't think it matters who controls the rural area. If that were just an empty rural area inside Spain, with no forces on either side present, a depot could not be placed there, even within two spaces of another depot--could it? At least that's how I read the rules; I haven't tried it in the game.

That is, to create a depot, you need one of two things: a corps or a home nation *city*. Spain hasn't got either one here.

Nathan Rose


Not quite correct. If it is inside your home nation you do *not* need to have a corps there to place the depot. So you need one of three things, either (a) a corps, (b) a home nation city, or (c) an area within two areas of another depot inside your home nation, with or without a corps. Spain has (c) and therefore is legally entitled to build the depot (as the city garrison watch on in hunger).



Spain does not have (c) as far as I can see, because the requirement to place a depot relying on the chain of supply test requires -

7.2.3 DEPOTS IN SUPPLY CHAINS: A new depot may be placed within two unblocked areas of an already existing (before this Turn) depot that is a supply source or which is part of a valid supply chain.

Its not enough that you are within two areas of a depot inside your home territory, you must be within two unblocked areas.... The area that this depot is being placed within, is blocked, so it does not satisfy the test.

Trin

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RE: Placing depot in enemy city area? - 2/9/2008 6:06:35 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Status: offline 		Hey guys:

I think we're going to let common sense prevail and make it necessary to have a friendly unmoved corps if a home nation city is enemy controlled.

After looking at the actual operation (Placing a depot in an area with an enemy controlled city and not friendly unmoved corps present) it seems that this is ludicrous and should be illegal. Maybe this wasn't addressed because there is no strategic reason to do this :-)

I guess this technically could be a deviation but does anybody have a problem with this?





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