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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Harpoon 3 - Advanced Naval Warfare >> Help me make a choice...

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Help me make a choice... - 2/26/2008 4:42:02 PM

ubik

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

Greetings all!

I have been a long time fan of Harpoon, having it since 1990. I also played Harpoon 2 and Harpoon 97 (when I could not be able to run Harpoon 2 anymore on my Win98 machine).

So, I am here to ask for help from ou in making a decision about what version of Harpoon to buy: ANW or CE?

In order to help you folks giving useful advice, considering my personal taste, it all boils down to the following:

- How does the AI of ANW compare with the AI of CE? Does it suffer from the same "Chaaarge!" mentality? Is it also unable to consider the primary targets for a scenario? Contrary to Harpoon 97, can it plan attacks on land bases by its own? Can it use a bit better the allocated resources for a scenario? Please, give examples.

- What about the scenario editor in ANW? Can we define the chance of a certain platform or group to exist in the scenario, like in Harpoon 97 (recall I don't have CE)? Or is it static, the same scenario always having the same platforms? Can a Platform/Group have different starting positions, or a single one? Can we define multiple paths for the same group or will the group always follow the same path?

Let me thank the kind souls who will answer, helping me in buying the game most suited to my taste!

Regards

Post #: 1

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/26/2008 7:56:19 PM

Shemar

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline

I have only been playing for a short bit and I have yet to create any of my own scenarios, but I have done a lot of research on what and cannot be done.

One thing I know for a fact is that there is no objective or scenario level AI at all on Harpoon ANW. It is up to the scenario designer to pre-program the AI with missions. On first realisation that sounds pretty bad. My initial reaction was "well Harpoon is only good for multiplayer then", when I found that out. However, these missions are very flexible and the people designing the scenarios are pretty skilled, so at least for the scenarios I have played so far, the AI presented an opponent varying from decent to challenging.

Unlike multiplayer, the AI side does not play to achieve Victory Conditions, it just tries to prevent the human opponent from achieving theirs. That has the added bonus that on well designed scenarios you can play both sides without knowing in advance what the other side is doing.

So, the straight answer to your first question is that the AI does not charge or allocate resources at all. It is up to the scenario designer to plan the AIs 'game' and sometimes the results are pretty spectacular. I am sure the people that have actually designed scenarios can give you more detailed and accurate information.

I don't know if it is able to define units that may or may not be available on scenarios. I do know that at least based on the manual you can vary the initial position of units (I think) and you can vary the time when a mission comes into effect (I am pretty sure about that). I am guessing using that functionality it is possible to set such a variance that the missions in question come in play too late to play a part or even after the scenario has expired, therefore effectively having the result that a unit may or may not be available to the AI to use against the player.

I do not know the answer to defining different paths for the same group.

All my information is for ANW, I do not have CE.

(in reply to ubik)

Post #: 2

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/26/2008 8:37:51 PM

BurntFingers

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ubik

- What about the scenario editor in ANW? Can we define the chance of a certain platform or group to exist in the scenario, like in Harpoon 97 (recall I don't have CE)? Or is it static, the same scenario always having the same platforms?

Yes, the same scenario will always have the same units. It's not always obvious what a contact is though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ubik
Can a Platform/Group have different starting positions, or a single one?

Designers can designate a starting area for any units, the unit will appear somewhere within that area. Land units will never move though. (And designers don't always make use of the feature).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ubik

Can we define multiple paths for the same group or will the group always follow the same path?

Always shortest path followed, although if exclusion zones have been put in, the navigator will automatically choose a path around them.

I can't compare ANW to CE because I stopped playing CE (all Classic derived games) some years ago.

AI can be quite subtle on ANW. Playing Strato Down scenario right now - carrier air groups are set to come online JUST as the SSMs are detected. Quite cute.

I'm pretty sure all the above is correct. What it boils down to is, a scenario is just as good or bad as the designer.

The AI will make use of UNALLOCATED resources but there's usually few if any unallocated resources in a decent scenario.

< Message edited by BurntFingers -- 2/26/2008 8:40:13 PM >

_____________________________

I don't work here. I just collect the glasses to get a beer quicker.

(in reply to ubik)

Post #: 3

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/26/2008 10:34:12 PM

ubik

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

Thank you for the answers.

I like to design scenarios on my own an then play them. So, I enjoy to be faced with unknown factors.

Just to recap, is it confirmed the AI uses unnalocated resources for its own purposes (creating mission of its own)? I don't find this a weakness, on the contrary.

(in reply to BurntFingers)

Post #: 4

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/26/2008 10:39:01 PM

Shemar

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

The AI will make use of UNALLOCATED resources but there's usually few if any unallocated resources in a decent scenario.

Could you elaborate on that? It was my impression (from the dicumentation and what I read, not personal experiense) that any assets not assigned to a mission will spend the entire scenario sitting idle (except possibly self defense for ships and facilities). For example if the AI has 2 F-16s parked in an airbase and not assigned to any missions, they will never take off, no matter what. Is that not the case? Will the AI use unallocated assets to attack identified contacts?

Edit: And I agree, ubik, if that is the case it is definitely a very positive thing.

< Message edited by Shemar -- 2/26/2008 10:40:12 PM >

(in reply to BurntFingers)

Post #: 5

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/27/2008 2:10:19 AM

JRyan

Posts: 555
Joined: 3/29/2005
Status: offline

I would suggest both as I did, but that is up to you. There is a discount for both I think.

(in reply to Shemar)

Post #: 6

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/27/2008 3:17:02 AM

ubik

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

I understand JRyan, but they cover the same subject and they are close enough to have a similar feel.

From the pov of "reality" I would prefer ANW, but only if it has the capability of allowing me to have fun with my own designed scenarios by randomizing as much elements as possible (within plausible limits, of course)... Or if the AI is significantly better than in CE.

Right now on one side I have an editor that allows me to define as many paths as I want, as many starting points as I want and that uses the assets it has, however rudimentarily.

On the other I have an editor where the OpFor appears within a predefined area (better than the above example), does not allow me to define multiple paths and simply stands iddle if not instructed by the scenario designer (ok, I am sure it will defend itself within the limits of the formation editor). I have a report that tells me the AI is even incapable of launching attacks on its own (very, very bad for my top mentioned objectives) and another that contradicts it (which is undeniably good).

(in reply to JRyan)

Post #: 7

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/27/2008 5:07:37 PM

BurntFingers

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shemar

quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

The AI will make use of UNALLOCATED resources but there's usually few if any unallocated resources in a decent scenario.

Could you elaborate on that? It was my impression (from the dicumentation and what I read, not personal experiense) that any assets not assigned to a mission will spend the entire scenario sitting idle (except possibly self defense for ships and facilities). For example if the AI has 2 F-16s parked in an airbase and not assigned to any missions, they will never take off, no matter what. Is that not the case? Will the AI use unallocated assets to attack identified contacts?

As far as aircraft goes, I can confirm that the AI will launch AA patrols with unallocated aircraft. I am not sure about surface strikes (it's a tricky one to test). But it certainly does launch unused assets for AA patrols.

As far as subs go, the AI is pretty good. I played the scenario "To Protect the Queen" recently, got HMS Triumph close the Sov Surface group, then changed difficulty level (this is technically a bit involved so never mind how).

The Triumph icon vanished (out of comms contact) and about an hour later 4 Sov ships were at the bottom of the North Sea. I know it wasn't me giving the orders - I just got reports starting "Target XX has been hit by a weapon". I had previously used up the Harpoons onboard so it was definitely a submerged assault with torps.

As far as I know, identified contacts will have assets vectored onto them BUT in the case of aircraft, it won't keep change the loadout/ready aircraft for strike on the offchance that a viable target appears.

Suggest you play the demo and tinker with it. I'm still learning new stuff about the AI everyday.

_____________________________

I don't work here. I just collect the glasses to get a beer quicker.

(in reply to Shemar)

Post #: 8

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/27/2008 7:45:40 PM

ubik

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

Cool! Thanks all!!!

(in reply to BurntFingers)

Post #: 9

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/27/2008 8:28:55 PM

FreekS

Posts: 323
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

I'm primarily a Harpoon-3/ANW designer and I like to play my own scens; though you do get to know them very well and challenge becomes less.

I have been able to set multiple start points, multiple end-points and using exclusion zones, multiple paths between them to randomise convoys over a wide area.

The AI does need to be given missions by the designer, but the mission can be made general; essentially ' attack first ship detected' or ' attack first ground unit detected' which together with randomised Recce missions can give variability. Recce for the AI tends to be the most critical and difficult part of good scens.

I think the AI only uses planes that are unallocated to missions for Formation air patrols on pretty dumb formatons; I always allocate all planes to missions. Unallocated ships just sit there.

No buying advise; I bought both but chose to focus my time on H3/ANW; I like Classic and its successor very much also.

_____________________________

(in reply to ubik)

Post #: 10

RE: Help me make a choice... - 2/29/2008 3:07:12 AM

ubik

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

Thanks for your time to explain it all FreekS.

I already picked Harpoon Classic.

As just a piece of constructive criticism, I think both products could profit immensely from a better AI.

Note that betterAI does not mean human like AI or close. My formation is in computer science, so I have a hint of what is feasible or not.

But some more rules for the AI to use: Automatic selection of unallocated resources to create strike packages, coordinated attacks from multiple bearings, calculating the odds versus enemies detected and proceeding accordingly, etc.

Anyway, great games! :)

(in reply to FreekS)

Post #: 11