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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 6:52:09 AM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Eh?

For implementing the idea that heavy flak is not as effective when being dragged down a jungle trail than when it is deployed in optimal batteries with director commo, etc?

Hey, bring on the flak!


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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 9:08:00 AM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		Sorry, I guess my joke wasn't punny enough. [NUDGE, NUDGE!]

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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 1:24:29 PM   
Hortlund


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Status: offline 		Meanwhile in the port of Rangoon...






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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 1:25:46 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Yeah looks like 100s at least of heavy flak - a.k.a. the NE Indian Mobile Flak Army is comming to town!

(sorry for the bad advice - I let thoughts of reality get in my head waaaay too often - and also I haven't played NikMod in a full PBEM campaign either - in the GuadMod - we didn't have huge stacks like this)




Its possible to 'abuse' the change by uber-stacking. Players should decide if or what restrictions they want to do on stacking AA units , same as with air units.

That or try bombing at a higher altitude. 11k is rather low against a well defended target.





Do you have any suggestions for a reasonable houserule regarding flak?

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 364
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 3:56:37 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 365
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 5:13:42 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Yeah looks like 100s at least of heavy flak - a.k.a. the NE Indian Mobile Flak Army is comming to town!

(sorry for the bad advice - I let thoughts of reality get in my head waaaay too often - and also I haven't played NikMod in a full PBEM campaign either - in the GuadMod - we didn't have huge stacks like this)




Its possible to 'abuse' the change by uber-stacking. Players should decide if or what restrictions they want to do on stacking AA units , same as with air units.

That or try bombing at a higher altitude. 11k is rather low against a well defended target.





Do you have any suggestions for a reasonable houserule regarding flak?


It varies...depending on the situation (i.e. what playing styles and house rules are in effect) After all it doesn't make alot of sense to overly restrict AA stacking if there are no govenors on stacking airpower for max effort pinpoint strikes. (i.e. Ye Olde 200 plane fighter "sweep" or 200+ plane CAP or 200+ bomber raid at low alt)

If other restrictions are in play i've seen players agree on a max limit of 3-5 AA units per base. Atoll situations might call for more restrictive rules though one workaround for carrier aircraft (DB vulnerability) is to use TB's as high alt level bombers. Allied especially can still be effective here against a strong base if they attack high enough.


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Post #: 366
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 5:30:48 PM   
Hortlund


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Status: offline 		Well, we have the "base size x 50"-rule in place regarding how many planes can be stacked in a base hex. With that in mind, would you say that 3-5 flak units per hex is a reasonable houserule?

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Post #: 367
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 5:59:35 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		I try for 2-4 in most bases using Nik mod. I have found that 3 Japanese AA regiments can pretty much butcher (damage) any allied strike. I mainly place 1 for forward bases, 2-3 for major bases behind front lines but within allied air range and max 4 in the in range but must protect at all costs. Kendari, Java, Rangoon, Hong Kong etc.

But then again, it does not take long at 6,000 feet to learn that it is suicide to do so very often. Sure would be nice to see CAP hit an outgoing raid ala BTR after they get shredded by flak. I would love that.

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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 6:03:34 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Well, we have the "base size x 50"-rule in place regarding how many planes can be stacked in a base hex. With that in mind, would you say that 3-5 flak units per hex is a reasonable houserule?


its reasonable though the Home Islands may want to exclude after mass B-29 raids become possible. ultimately its up to the players. You might first try bombing from above 11k. Even against a larger stack your losses will decrease dramatically at the higher alts, esp if Allied. (like for example 20k)

Another tactic that can be effective if the base has a port (and is bombardable) is the one-two punch. First bombard from the sea....that heavily disrupts any flak units usually which then greatly reduces flak for the a2a phase same turn.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 2/27/2008 6:04:53 PM >

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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 6:16:02 PM   
Hortlund


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Status: offline 		Yeah, Ive had that happen to me at Akyab. Cost me something like 100 Oscars torched on the ground.

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 370
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 6:18:12 PM   
Hortlund


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Status: offline 		Hmm, I think I might try one of those against Chandpur actually. Ive got one supply convoy for Akyab forming around Singapore, and I thought I would escort it with the KB and 4-5 BBs. I could do a bombardment run on Chandpur while I unload at Akyab, and then send in 200 Helens from Mandalay. If I do it right and disrupt the flak, I could either send in the Helens at 6k on runway strikes, or perhaps even try a port attack...Ive seen lots of ships at Chandpur harbor....

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 371
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 7:01:04 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Heh, today he tried to sweep the mines at Dutch harbor. A force of 5-6 MSWs started sweeping the mines...under the barrels of my CD unit. 5 MSWs sunk. I doubt he will be trying that again.

He also bombed the base with SBDs and LBs...all in all he lost 6 planes to flak. Bad turn for him, good turn for me.

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 372
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 7:44:14 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Still fighting...




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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 373
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 9:12:38 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		SA-2 is leaving port at Singapore.

This time it will be a smaller convoy. Just 10 ships carrying supplies and 4 minelayers...and an escort of 6 carriers, 4 BBs including the Yamato, 6 CAs and 30 Destroyers.

Man, these SA-convoys are really feeling like the Pedestal convoys, or the PQ-runs. It brings excitement to an otherwise rather dull period of the war.

In other news, the allied ground forces entered Akyab yesterday...we shall see if there comes an attack today. I suspect not, Im betting we will see a bombardment attack first. Should give a good indication as to what we can expect here.

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 374
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 9:13:31 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
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Status: offline 		Oh, I almost forgot...






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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 375
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/27/2008 9:51:09 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Akyab...looks like I'll manage to hold it for now...




AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/21/42



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Akyab

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 77768 troops, 780 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 1712

Defending force 97597 troops, 979 guns, 327 vehicles, Assault Value = 1720


Japanese ground losses:
28 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
104 casualties reported
Guns lost 10



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Panzerjaeger Hortlund -- 2/27/2008 10:34:42 PM >

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 376
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 1:38:10 PM   
Hortlund


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Status: offline 		Another bombardment attack today by the allied forces at Akyab. No losses for me. I think akyab is pretty safe for now with fort lvl 9, plenty of supplies and all those units.

Im going to pull out the tank regiments from there when my supply convoy has unloaded their supplies. I want to build up a operational reserve for this area.

Right now I am in the process of building up reserves on the strategic level, Im gathering that reserve at Manilla, I will let you know what those units are in a few days when they are in place. I am also moving all my Bettys from frontline bases and instead Im keeping them at Truk and Manilla. The idea is that I wont waste a Betty wing in a suicide run against the CV CAP as soon as I spot one of his TFs, instead I will mass my Bettys and attack in force the day after.

I am also building up local reserves for the Burma theater and for the Coral Sea theater. Meanwhile the withdrawal from Noumea and the outer perimeter continues.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 377
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:09:39 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		October is just around the corner. And with that comes both the B-24D and the P-38G...

That means Timor and New Guinea are vunerable to invasions from mid October...


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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 378
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:12:43 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Myself I have to wait until November for the Tojo... I wonder why the dates are so different for Nikmod and CHS. In CHS I get the Tojos in July.

Also, in this game I have recieved a wing of 36 Tojos in August...they are still "organizing" off-map. I mean whats the point really?

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 379
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:14:11 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
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From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

October is just around the corner. And with that comes both the B-24D and the P-38G...

That means Timor and New Guinea are vunerable to invasions from mid October...



The Battle for Timor, or where ever he first lands nearby, is an important one. Due to lack of nearby airbases, he will probably have to commit the carriers unless you leave him an easy hole. So you will have a chance to hit with "rock paper scissors (LBA, Carriers and Surface). I've had success against multiple opponents in this area. But you need to arrive on the scene with all of your players before he captures the hex. So you need to base the fleet somewhere in the area. I've calculated that Palau or Ulithi would be good spots, but I've actually never based the fleet there, not sure why.



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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:18:54 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Meanwhile in the port of Rangoon...








Does the ship art improve with repairs?


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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:19:52 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

October is just around the corner. And with that comes both the B-24D and the P-38G...

That means Timor and New Guinea are vunerable to invasions from mid October...



The Battle for Timor, or where ever he first lands nearby, is an important one. Due to lack of nearby airbases, he will probably have to commit the carriers unless you leave him an easy hole. So you will have a chance to hit with "rock paper scissors (LBA, Carriers and Surface). I've had success against multiple opponents in this area. But you need to arrive on the scene with all of your players before he captures the hex. So you need to base the fleet somewhere in the area. I've calculated that Palau or Ulithi would be good spots, but I've actually never based the fleet there, not sure why.





Hm, Im basing the Combined Fleet at Singapore. Then Im moving 3 BBs and 6 CAs to Truk for the defence of New Guinea. I figure the combination of LBA and these fleet units should be enough here. I have lvl 4 or higher airbases at Lae, Gilli Gilli, Thursday Island, Rabaul and Kavieng.

Is it close enough to base at Singapore, or do I have to move them closer? Say Soerebaja?

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:20:54 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Meanwhile in the port of Rangoon...








Does the ship art improve with repairs?


Hehe, well, I have this mod now...not sure how I installed it really, but there it is.

Anyway, do you have the file for me?


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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 383
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:24:34 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Leaving for Greece next week. I'll send the files before I go. Send me your email.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:29:14 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Leaving for Greece next week. I'll send the files before I go. Send me your email.


your bloody PM inbox is full!

stevehortlund@hotmail.com

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 385
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:57:48 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Im expecting some action tomorrow

Here is the situation around SA-2. The CVs will remain at their present location, all Zeros are on CAP, all VALs are ordered to hit the Chandpur airfields, Kates are on naval attack in case he tries something funny.

So, transports escorted by BBs will enter Akyab. CAs will bombard Chandpur. Bombers from Mandalay and the CVs will hit the airfields of Chandpur. Bombers from Akyab will hit the port of Chandpur. The idea is that they will arrive after the 4 CAs do a bombardment run on the base to disrupt the AAA there.

Lets see how this works out. Disaster might strike if my CAs fail to bombard the port before the aircraft takes off.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 386
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 5:58:24 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		Oh, the ring is the defensive CAP over Akyab, and the bases the CAP comes from.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 387
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 6:37:05 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/28/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 20 encounters mine field at Akyab (30,29)

Japanese Ships
DD Asagiri, Mine hits 1, on fire
DD Tokitsukaze
CL Kiso, Mine hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Chandpur, at 30,25


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 4 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 2 destroyed
SB-2c: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Aoba
CA Mogami
CA Ashigara
CA Nachi


Allied ground losses:
1481 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
Vehicles lost 5

Airbase hits 23
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 127
Port fuel hits 1

Well, the first part of the plan worked pretty well...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Chandpur , at 30,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 8
D3A Val x 22
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 23
Ki-30 Ann x 53

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 3 destroyed, 16 damaged
Ki-30 Ann: 8 destroyed, 36 damaged

Allied Ships
MSW Maryborough, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Baroda, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Cuttack, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Port hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
11 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
7 x Ki-30 Ann bombing at 2000 feet
19 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet

And here comes the port attack... we still take heavy losses from the flak. Divebombers are always more vunerable...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Benares , at 28,18


Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 29
Spitfire Vb x 16
P-40E Warhawk x 112


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 24

Here are his fighters...

But then nothing...no massive raid from my carriers...no 200 bomber strike from Mandalay.

Well, I guess the allies got lucky again. (&#%¤


_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)
Post #: 388
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/28/2008 8:12:16 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Yes, the DB's are always going to take it on the chin to a degree due to the hard coded altitude they take flak at (2000 feet) I recommend never using them against a base with heavy AA defense. If using 1E's, only use the Torpedo bombers at max altitude. If the exp level is still high or elite, you'd be suprised at the respectible # of hits they can acheive. I used that tactic for the Marianas scenerio when using TF-58 vs a distant atoll target. TBM's are esp good at this being also armored and durable.

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Post #: 389
RE: West Wind, Clear - 2/29/2008 4:43:11 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Agree, my typical attack profile with KB against land targets is Kates at high, Vals on ASW and/or Naval and Zeros on CAP, escort or sweep as indicated by expected enemy air opposition.

I rarely if ever send KB to attack a Land target that is out of reach of LBA. The combo of LBA and KB is effective - KB by itself risks too many plane/pilot losses for the typical payback.



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Post #: 390
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