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Advice - 2/2/2008 9:47:38 PM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		Does anyone have advice on how to increase enemy fighter losses? Sweeps never draw the enemy fighters up so the attacking squadron lose heavily to flak while the escorts don't do anything.

Bombers early cant go many places with escorts and the escorts even if i have some high and close seem to be ineffective.

I know this is all historical but 4-1 losses are a bit off. So I was wondering if anyone had any advice.
Post #: 1
RE: Advice - 2/2/2008 10:11:26 PM   
wernerpruckner


Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		scenario & OB/OA ???

try to attack close targets with multiple layers of raids crossing each others paths  ( Brussles is a nice starter target ).
Use escorts with their optimal altitude ranges ( some planes are better in different alts than others.....much harder with the new version )
Use different layers ( alt and time ) of escorts.

watch and learn after such a raid.....you will see how long A/C can stay in the air in combat or in patrol mode...use this later for sweeps or raiding A/Fs

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RE: Advice - 2/2/2008 11:02:31 PM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
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Status: offline 		Whats patrol mode?

I was wondering if there is a way you can make aircraft loiter over an area in order to catch enamy AC as they return to base.

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RE: Advice - 2/2/2008 11:07:09 PM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		oh and its the long 43 campaign.

also is there anyway to get british fighters to escort 8th AF bombers? I have 1 british squadron with Mustang I's but for whatever reason I can never find them to do anything but sweeps.

Is there anyway to transfer fighter squadrons from one command to another?

I hope if not the new game allows this to a certain extent, units were shuffled back and forth from time to time. Hell thats how the 15th AF was made by taking bombers from the 12th and 8th AFs.

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RE: Advice - 2/3/2008 3:24:05 AM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		Prolly really bad idea but i just took 4 days and didnt launch a single sortie over those 4 days, did allow me to upgrade my 8th AF fighter groups to 2 having P-38Js and 1 P-47Ds and having all three groups at full streanth and ready to escort bombers.

P.S. Is it just me or is the total number of bombers for the 8th AF as of October 43 a bit low? There are 568 B-17Fs and Gs I was under the impression the 8th AF had more than that many operatonal bomber groupd by October of 43 am I wrong?

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RE: Advice - 2/3/2008 11:57:39 AM   
wernerpruckner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Whats patrol mode?

I was wondering if there is a way you can make aircraft loiter over an area in order to catch enamy AC as they return to base.




I meant the German interceptors.
When you fly with the boxes one German patroling forces are green. Retreating or called back forces are blue.

Units that did not do any combat yet have much longer legs and stay in the air for a certain time. Units in combat burn their fuel very fast.

Units that fly back to their bases can be dead meat -- but only if your timing is good.

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RE: Advice - 2/3/2008 12:07:42 PM   
wernerpruckner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

also is there anyway to get british fighters to escort 8th AF bombers? I have 1 british squadron with Mustang I's but for whatever reason I can never find them to do anything but sweeps.

Is there anyway to transfer fighter squadrons from one command to another?

I hope if not the new game allows this to a certain extent, units were shuffled back and forth from time to time. Hell thats how the 15th AF was made by taking bombers from the 12th and 8th AFs.



why would you do that - the Mustang I was not a really good fighter - it was a tactical recce fighter - not comparable with the later Mustang.
It has a very good range ( but the other numbers are not so good ) - use it for sweeping; and never put them as escorts for fast bombers like the Boston. ( Boston has a better cruising speed.... )
Spit VB has short legs, also Spit IX has better things to do

Yes, there are ways to escort 8th AF raids with those fighters ( build up an raid and reasign a new leading unit from another command ).

You can shuttle units to other commands, but this is a NONO in the game because it never worked right ( you may end up with many dedatchments and dededatchments and dededededede.......and not be able to reform them.....eats up A/C and pilots really fast )

15th AF build up is simulated in the game ( as are other events )- all heavy bombers of the 12th move to the 15th as do all ( a bit shacky here, because there was a bug in stock ) FS. The tactical forces ( Mitchell, Marauder, Boston and FGs stay with the 12th)
Happens around 1st November in the game.

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RE: Advice - 2/3/2008 12:14:10 PM   
wernerpruckner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Prolly really bad idea but i just took 4 days and didnt launch a single sortie over those 4 days, did allow me to upgrade my 8th AF fighter groups to 2 having P-38Js and 1 P-47Ds and having all three groups at full streanth and ready to escort bombers.

P.S. Is it just me or is the total number of bombers for the 8th AF as of October 43 a bit low? There are 568 B-17Fs and Gs I was under the impression the 8th AF had more than that many operatonal bomber groupd by October of 43 am I wrong?



not a single recce mission ??? can not be too good for bombing results
I´d reserve the P-39J for the 12th and 15th, because in the south all interesting targets are a bit farther away. And the P47D has no bigger problem to reach all of the Ruhr ( with their additional tanks even longer ). But that is just me.

The number looks too good in comparision with real life, but this is as the game works. You can only stand tdown units, you cannot move them to trainingduty ( as happened very often ) [ a good film how this was done is Twelve O'Clock High - but most of it plays in the time before the timeframe of the game)

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RE: Advice - 2/3/2008 3:21:33 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		for real life, remember also that BG had 4 Squadrons in them, and 3 were to fly each mission, the 4th stood down, the idea being that there would always be a rested and fresh Squadron for tomorrow (and hopefully, if a bad raid, you didn't have to fly all of them)

which the game does sort of reflex this, a BG has 48 planes but only 32 of them fly, if done right, you should always have at least 16 planes ready for the next day, but, the game's morale rules effect the whole group, so a bad raid, drops the morale for the whole group (maybe something to work on, on the down the road stuff)

with weather and losses, there is nothing wrong with taking a few days of combat off, if your heavies are tired, or shot up, and the weather is good, you can still send out the lights and meds, Tiffies should fly as often as they can get into the air (plus, that can be used to fly under the weather, bad  weather at 7 K,  the tiffies can fly at 6000 and still hit the coastal targets, while the high  fliers rest)

the Mustang I and IA, are tac recon, ground support, raiders, use them low, keep the LW honest, don't use them as escourts, the III is what we know as the 51B/C, the IV is the 51D/K

right now, Sweeps don't count as recon, I do want to get this changed, they down low and they on the enemy Airfield, they should be able to report on what they seen !!!!






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RE: Advice - 2/28/2008 8:27:44 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Flanyboy

I found some information on the 8th Air Force WWII web page. I found that there were many "Seduction" missions run to draw LW AC out of the path of missions that would be flown later in the day.

Many of these missions were flown up to and just across the western Europe coast and then turn North toward either target up in Belgium, or the Netherlands or they would just run up the coast to draw LW assets out. The actual strat mission or missions, would then follow through the opening in the LW coverage. I believe it was a standard tactic if I understand the reports I was reading from the various Bomber Squadrons Mission Report Logs.

I think this may be a good use of the Spitfire units. I believe they are better than the P47 and engaging the LW 109's and 190's. However I dont know if this difference is modeled in the game AC stats. I think it might be worth giving it a try. I know I will.

Later,
KayBay

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 10
RE: Advice - 2/28/2008 2:47:26 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Decoys, are a main part of the game, at least against the AI, a human on the other side, learns fast, so decoy will have to alway be changed vs a human

one hassle with Bomb Raid Decoys in the game, is they got to have a target

but, remember if you can, you want the bad guys dancing to your tune, not you dancing to there, keep them on there toes, keep them guessing, keep them busy

the Spit V, well, hopefully not get yelled at by Gavin, but pretty much is a pig, now it is a pretty pig, and better then some of the other pigs in the game, but still, it is a pig, in a fair fight, it is going to get it's head handed to it more often then not, and in a unfair fight, it still got a chance to get the low end of the stick, the IX is the work horse, so try to use the V for stuff that you don't want to waste your IXs on (you got a Squadron with 75 exp and they flying V's and you got a squadron of IXs with 60 exp, change planes)

39s, 40s, are also pigs, even worse, low level pigs, but they are great staffers, and while I hate to lose anything or anybody, you can afford to run into a flak trap every now and then, with a FG of 39s

in your verison of the game, the Tiffy and Cane are dogmeat if they run into enemy fighters, in our verison, they can still get hammered, but they will fight back, and if used right, they will hammer the bad guys

but, down on the deck, split up from flak, and damaged running for home and getting bounced, anybody is going to get hurt, but, even planes running for home, can snap back, you can even have boths sides flying side by side, both headed for home, and they will snap at each other (before they would just go there merry way, while you sat back and screamed at them)

Timeing, the biggest thing in the game, is timeing, a sweep of  12 planes that is in the right place at the right time, is a joy to behold, a massive raid of FGs getting to the same place at the wrong time, is just a waste, and if your lucky, not a flak trap

we been able to do a few things to the sweeps, they not as bad at getting pulled off path, and pretty much most of the sweep loop is gone, and a sweep will turn into a patrol once it reaches its target, but we still working on this, I want a much higher fuel burn for sweepers


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RE: Advice - 2/28/2008 7:53:05 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		I am using the one day introductory campaign as a learning tool for setting up and running basic missions atm. I dont have a manual so I dont want to get into all the force maintenance and planning stuff yet.

I put together a mission with multiple bomber forces hitting several targets in a localize area. I ran a sweep at one LW base nearest the paths and target. I ran the FG's path along a couple others to draw the LW out and away from the bombers. It worked pretty well. The bombers hit all their targets and were not intercepted.

It was close though, timing is everything as you stated. The LW reacted just a bit late but may have intercepted had I run the sweep a few minutes earlier.

This is a great game. I cant believe I had a copy of it in my hands when it came out and put it back on the shelf because I had read some pinheads review of it. Looking back I think they were looking for a First Person Shooter game or some kind of Arcade game. Dont understand how you could build an arcade strategy game of this scope.

Later,
KayBay

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Post #: 12
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 2:24:53 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Swift, HS or any of u old BTS veterans,

Now that we are on the subject. As told i started up the game again recently.
Im playing a 1.06x5, 1943 campaign, no OOB patch, allied side.

Im not as concerned about the kill ratio thats seems to go fairly well and the Italy invasion was a week to 2 weeks ahead too.

Im now on 13 dec 1943 and was wondering if im actually killing enough Jerries, playing the AI. Airfield sweeps have becomed unpactical ratio kill wise as the AI have every airfield loaded with LAA. Good move :-)

Any of u got any rough number of german planes or pilots i need to eliminate to be on track?
Per month or day or how ever u count.

Points are at 20'ish but it seems im stuck as the industry repairs as fast as I can bomb new. Terrorpoints is slowly rising and thats fine.
Points should be a problem as i know only the ground war will be the ultimate point scorer.


TIA,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 2/29/2008 2:28:41 AM >

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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 11:14:49 AM   
soeren01

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Bayern
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Swift, HS or any of u old BTS veterans,

Now that we are on the subject. As told i started up the game again recently.
Im playing a 1.06x5, 1943 campaign, no OOB patch, allied side.

Im not as concerned about the kill ratio thats seems to go fairly well and the Italy invasion was a week to 2 weeks ahead too.

Im now on 13 dec 1943 and was wondering if im actually killing enough Jerries, playing the AI. Airfield sweeps have becomed unpactical ratio kill wise as the AI have every airfield loaded with LAA. Good move :-)

Any of u got any rough number of german planes or pilots i need to eliminate to be on track?
Per month or day or how ever u count.

Points are at 20'ish but it seems im stuck as the industry repairs as fast as I can bomb new. Terrorpoints is slowly rising and thats fine.
Points should be a problem as i know only the ground war will be the ultimate point scorer.


TIA,

Rasmus




What is your Air Superiority rating ?

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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 11:34:47 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Still 2. After bad days of the jerries, the number in summery suggests i should get 3, but the number stays so i assume its a question of FoW.

Considering the AI makes what 80 planes a day, im not supprised.
I've tried reducing that, but i cant see how u can ever get up there. In terms of killing per day. On good days the score is up there and higher, but then 2 days of bad weather and well the average is pretty low then.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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Post #: 15
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 2:37:44 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I compared my self to Fochinell and Swifts AAR.
Ofc this isnt vs AI, but still i seem to be on the same track as him in killed jerries.
He has 7500 on 1 april 1944 and i have 3400 at 15 dec 1943. So per day its not that different. My ratio is a bit better than his, but again im playing the AI.
Having finally seemingly to gotten my escort done right plus ofc having more figthers now than before. In dec unlike before my B-17/B-24 are losing fewer than 10 bombers per raid out of 300-500 so that % is very nice. In the range of 1-4%'ish.
Yesterday raids produced X 81 A 41 and only 5 lost bombers in day raids in nothern Italy and the Ruhr area.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 2/29/2008 2:42:01 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 2:41:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		AS will be picking up some shortly once you start getting more units in, the AS is easier to kick up and keep up, plus your getting some of the better planes now, it will not be all uphill anymore


20 is a decent score for now, you just want it to be building, once OVERLORD targeting comes in, you can lose a lot of points before you are able to get back to the Air War

(most games the Allies lose, it is during OVERLORD)

you need to get Big Week in, as soon as you can/are ready, just the key word is when ready, but don't put it off too long

also, work on the Crit industries, knock them down, and then keep them down, Alum, Rubber, Chem are the easier ones to hurt, Ports are good, and slow to rebuild, plus, they are a good target for BC, but Power and Fuel are the importent ones, but much HARDer to take enough of them out early in the war

if you can break the power grid, you shut everything down, but, alot of those are 2 and 3 point sites, and they are all over the place (Steel, for me, I have never been able to knock steel out)




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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 5:43:48 PM   
soeren01

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Bayern
Status: offline 		A AS of 2 is ok. You will see that over time your kill ratio will get better, as the LW experience decreases

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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 6:59:45 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Kill ratio over all is 4200 allied to 3400 axis's so i think im doing pretty well there. If any thing, its pilots im lacking not planes.
In dec the kill ration actually been to my advantage. So wasnt so much the kill ration i was worried amout more if i was killing axis's enough for AS eventually to rise as they atm plane wíse would be replacing those losses easily.
Aka sacrife more allied planes/pliots to get a few more killz. Most likely at a worse kill ration than until now tho.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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Post #: 19
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 8:54:11 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		remember, K/R are going to be different then in RL, games are just more bloody then RL was

I had a old first turn save, that I had made as a training set up for the old website, depending on luck, I could get between 325-425 LW losses on the first day

I had also made number of raid type saves, to show of different plotting styles (things like Crisscross, Outrigger, Starburst and what not)

(LOL, one of them, I was shocked, it was about how to defend a raid, first time I tried, it was 1 bomber for 93 LW fighters, later runs, would change, but most times the R/D was in the 9-10 to 1 range)

hmmm, wonder if I still got them, I am a pack rat type




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Post #: 20
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 9:09:52 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Hmmm, so far, so good

I was nasty way back when, guess I have mellowed out some over the years




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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 9:24:17 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		ahh, Noon, getting some miss luck, but doing well, Hit Bari, but didn't hit it HARD enough, and paid the price when the Its were able to get up and chase one of my sweeps on the way home

getting lots of damaged, (SAS bug is going to clean up)






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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 9:40:40 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		ahh, running into some bad luck, one of my key strikes ran into Gruppen of planes trying to attack something, and I am getting tons of damaged planes instead of kills, but

still all in all, a good day

of course got to wait out the night now




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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 9:48:43 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well, not too shabby, I didn't reach my target losses, but I see where luck kicked in, some good, some bad, but I am in the range of doing what I said it could

when I did this save, the idea was to show the Allies could get 100 kills on the first turn, Harley never believed the numbers I said I was getting during my turns, 100 kills in a day, was a goal of many way back when

and in fact, I didn't really go over board on the pure intruder missions, most are extended path runs






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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 10:00:55 PM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Sarge,
Could you talk to me about the missions you built to accomplish this? I am just starting out with this game and I would appreciate some advice from you guys on building good missions for the Allied side.

I have been reading over this board and gathering some good strats and tactics from you all. I think I have a fairly good idea of the overall strats for success but I am not sure how to put a good mission together.

Thanks for any advice you all are willing to share.


Later,
KayBay

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Post #: 25
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 10:04:38 PM   
Charest

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		The only thing with this example HARD, is that on the first day of the game, I would yell: exploit!!! There is no way the luftwaffe player could do anything against an all out assault from the raf and ussaf. And an experienced allied player kinda knows where all the "lucrative" airfields are. The luftwaffe needs time to reshuffle its units.

It does not prove wrong your point, but to have such numbers, even a week later in the war, would be pretty amazing and the feat of a really good allied player versus a very poor luftwaffe player.

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Post #: 26
RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 11:41:54 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Well, first off, the defender moves first, so in this case, the LW has the first turn, plus I also took out 101 planes in the air

and I think you are missing part of the idea, it was trying to catch the LW in the air, not on the ground, if the timing is just off, they are already down or already up, plus a number of the bomb raids were to AFs, to force the LW to intercept, or get there fields pounded

in the new version of the game, I have been able to add in a number of new AFs, to give both sides better placement of units

to be honest, if there are any complaints, it should be that alot of the losses are coming from the MED, the It losses are going to be gone anyway, and LW losses in the MED are not importent

but again, the idea back then, was to show that the Allies can fight from day one, which going against your statement, that is the idea, because most people do not believe the Allies can force the issue from the start of the game






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RE: Advice - 2/29/2008 11:51:19 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		KBR
well, one hassle is, what is a good mission ? you can reach the target with no losses, knock down plenty of planes that try to hit you, and then miss the target, or you can get hammered on the way in and on the way out, and blew the target apart

which in those cases, the idea is, what is the target, is it something that "has" to be taken out, no matter what ? or something that is designed with the idea of pulling targets to your fighters

I do tend to set up raids, with the idea that I want the enemy to attack, that is something like what a outrigger raid is designed for, a main raid, with a raid following it about 3 to 5 minutes behind (and if you have numbers another one behind that) then with at least two raids on the flanks (15-30 miles away, alittle behind) with the excourts flying every few minutes, so there is a stream of them all the way to the target

the idea here is, attackers that come in from the front, got to fight, the ones coming in from the sides, run into other units, planes trying to get away, also run into fighters, you want to burn up there gas, and make them break before they can do major damage, and the work them over

great when it works, a pain in the butt when it don't :)




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RE: Advice - 3/1/2008 12:16:16 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		KBR

this was a Decoy and bait raid, with a cross over

the idea here is a number small raids to Radar sites, and sneak some fast bombers to some Airfields

the time is winter, so the LW is slow in taking off, so the early morning raids got a good chance to get in and get out, but still draw in fighters

what is different in this one, is the 2nd tac and IXth take off first, but they are the ones on the outside, and doing the crossing over top of the main raid from the VIIIth

which a couple of small outrigger raids would of helped out some here also

this one works, somewhat, as the LW goes after the fast raids, and follows them into the main raid, which they are tired and running low on gas by the time they catch up

when I ran it this time it was around 67 LW for 21 Allied, nothing great, but eoungh to keep the pressure on

a human will tend to not react to the radar attacks, and will also tend to hang back, to get a better feel for what is going on, so vs a human, you got to keep changing plans




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RE: Advice - 3/1/2008 1:13:26 AM   
kaybayray

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Sarge,
Great stuff....

Could you tell me what the various types of raids were comprised of? What kind of aircraft, how many, alt flown, type of escorts (Close or Top Cover), etc... to what kind of target?

I think I see what you are showing me. Just need some details. I will experiment with these ideas this weekend and see if I can make some leaps.

Thank you very much for taking time to enlighten a fellow fan of these games.

Later,
KayBay

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Post #: 30
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