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Land Mines - 2/27/2008 2:57:41 AM   
jrm16311

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		I was playing a game the other night with a buddy and I was face with the difficult task of denfending a vital position. While to trying to device my strategy I thought about "Why can't my engineers place land mines on a specific hex to help defend a pass".

Are there any plans to add a feature for Engineers to have the ability to lay down mine fields on a hex?
Post #: 1
RE: Land Mines - 2/27/2008 3:56:56 AM   
zook08

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		IMO mines are part of fortifications and shouldn't usually be represented otherwise. Mines don't cause significant damage on an operational level.

(in reply to jrm16311)
Post #: 2
RE: Land Mines - 2/27/2008 4:27:22 AM   
Rocko911

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		I feel that landmines were effective at the operational level. They had an impact in Africa in many different battles including Rommels attack on Ras El Madauur. Just my opinion. I am including both anti-tank and personnel in this.

(in reply to zook08)
Post #: 3
RE: Land Mines - 2/27/2008 4:35:06 AM   
jrm16311

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not saying that a hex with a mine field would totally wipe out a unit, but would cause enough damage to cause the player trying to move to pause for fear of further damage. Either that or it would eliminate that units ability to move any further for that turn.

Perhaps you're right, in the big scheme of things, mines may not cause tremendous damage to man and machine, however, one cannot underestimate their psychological effects on the enemy. I think there is definitely a place for them in the game.

(in reply to Rocko911)
Post #: 4
RE: Land Mines - 2/27/2008 2:55:46 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I just playing around with two different mine solutions.
One solution is close to the one you want.
Engineers laying a minefield.
BUT: That minefield doesn´t do damage, it just increases  movement costs by 50%.
These mine solution is simply there to slow down the enemy advance.
I just created a minefield Loctype and a minefield SFT and allowed construction by engineers.

The other is like the one tweber used in GPW. Real mine SFT´s doing some damage,
but this one is hard to balance. Actually i give engineers a bonus in fighting (clearing) them.

(in reply to jrm16311)
Post #: 5
RE: Land Mines - 2/27/2008 5:16:01 PM   
jrm16311

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		Well, I would think a mine field would have both damage to the unit, and loss of movement points. If you look at it from a "realistic" point of view, a unit traversing a mine field wouldn't know they are on a mine field until the first casulty, so I think some damage is needed. The movement point loss is due to the realistic scenario that the unit would slow down to try to safely move through or out of the mine field.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 6
RE: Land Mines - 2/27/2008 6:43:07 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		This depends which kind of scenario it is and which unit scale.
A scenario like russia 1941 is strategic level and the mines don´t have to be too detailled.
The minefield slows the enemy advance down since the advancing troops have to use their specialists to
clear the minefields. The whole thing is a bit simplified i know, but for a strategical scneario with korps level and
3 week-turns this would be very ok i think.
Mines doing too much damage can become a problem and screw the game balance.
Imho that kind of mines is not easy to balance.

(in reply to jrm16311)
Post #: 7
RE: Land Mines - 2/28/2008 1:52:10 AM   
mtvaill

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/6/2007
Status: offline 		I like the movement point cost idea. Seille has a point when he says it would be difficult to balance damage-wise. I suggest it should cost a decent amout of engineering points to lay the field as well, to reflect the difficulty covering an entire hex with mines. Perhaps there could be a counter-SFT (minesweepers) that could serve to lessen the movement cost reduction, say from 50% to 25%, as ideally everything should have a counter.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 8
RE: Land Mines - 2/28/2008 1:59:57 AM   
Nort


Posts: 19
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline 		I kinda like the idea.


< Message edited by Nort -- 2/28/2008 2:00:12 AM >

_____________________________

Cheers,

Nort

(in reply to mtvaill)
Post #: 9
RE: Land Mines - 2/28/2008 3:37:23 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The mines i play around with have the following values:

Costs for laying 150 EP +1PP (maybe i have to increase the price a bit, but the mines don´t do damage....)
Hitpoints: 1000
Movement reduction: 50% (actually for both armies, but i don´t want to make separate movement types for both armies)
It´s possible to destroy the field by engineers since it´s a location (unfortunately strategic bombers can attack, too).

Counter SFT´s are engineers. They can destroy the fields.


Another solution with similar effect is to have Mine SFT´s WITHOUT doing damage.
They are just obstacles. Bigger amount of hitpoints or smaller attack values for the attacker would cause the same effect as the first solution above.
The attacker has to spend some combat rounds (and AP) to eliminate the "hitpoint-containers".
Delay again. The mines would need very high movement costs since i don´t want to see retreating mines.

I still prefer the first solution which could be very nice when balanced.
But it has also some weak points like the fact that both armies get the movement penalty for that terrain.
I can´t easily adjust the movement costs for a regime per landscape. Only by movetype which would affect both armies with the standard masterfile.

(in reply to Nort)
Post #: 10
RE: Land Mines - 3/3/2008 8:53:18 PM   
jrm16311

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		Seille,

It sounds like you're actually making modifications to the game to encompass this idea? I had no idea you could do this...that's great.

I'm confused with your post in which you mentioned unit scale. I was operating under the impression that the unit scale was the same in all scenarios. I haven't played many of the game's scenarios, mostly I play with my buddy 1v1 or 2vX in maps that we create or that are randomly made so perhaps I just haven't been exposed to different unit scale.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 11
RE: Land Mines - 3/3/2008 9:17:44 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline 		Jeff,

This game is VERY flexible with regard to scale (and most other things as well).

If you have any interest, take a look at the mods threads. This game engine allows you to scale your maps from low level operational, up to the entire world. (TWebers WaW scenario covers the whole world with a wrap around map).

In fact, one guy here is making a Star Trek mod that will have a map with an even larger scale.

Naturally, this means you need to be able to change how quickly units can move around (as well as other things such as Art Ranges, etc). But the editor allows you to do this as well.

Vic has put together one of the most, if not the most, flexible game systems I've seen.

Rick

(in reply to jrm16311)
Post #: 12
RE: Land Mines - 3/3/2008 10:21:41 PM   
jrm16311

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/12/2007
Status: offline 		It would appear so Rick.

So you mentioned a Star Trek mod. Other mods i'm used to involve downloading a file and in most cases, you have a completely new game (like of the Quake mod's I've played). Would this be the case with any mods developed for AT? Would mod developers be able to share their work with others by making the download available (if they so choose)?

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 13
RE: Land Mines - 3/3/2008 11:41:09 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		It´s up to the scenario designer what the unit scale or hex size is. Same for time.
And i think personally that a more strategical scenario like "russia 1941" can have minefields as locations.
Easier to place and just slowing down the enemy. No need to show the damage here.

For games with weekly turns of smaller hexes i think the SFtype mines could be better.
As i said i tested two versions. The obstacles, which eat just some combatrounds of the attacker (delay)
or the active ones which do real damage.
For my project i actually tend to use the location. But maybe i´ll change my mind, since the sftmines are working well, too.

The modability in this game is nearly unlimited and i´m still a beginner with the editor

(in reply to jrm16311)
Post #: 14
RE: Land Mines - 3/4/2008 1:52:32 AM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jrm16311

It would appear so Rick.

So you mentioned a Star Trek mod. Other mods i'm used to involve downloading a file and in most cases, you have a completely new game (like of the Quake mod's I've played). Would this be the case with any mods developed for AT? Would mod developers be able to share their work with others by making the download available (if they so choose)?



There's a community site at http://www.advancedtactics.org/

You can look around at user made scenarios, and mods. To download you have to create an account there, but its simple to do. THere's also additional documentation in the doc section.

Theirs a thread on the Star Trek mod here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1706755.

It's not ready for download yet, but I would imagine Bulldog would post on community site when he's ready.

Rick

(in reply to jrm16311)
Post #: 15
RE: Land Mines - 3/4/2008 1:55:07 AM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline

Yes, I think youre correct, for large scale one type of mine with mainly delay impact, while a different scale would have different effects.

Sounds good to me.

Rick

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 16
RE: Land Mines - 3/6/2008 9:14:17 PM   
Ande

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		I allways felt that mines was a part of the Infantry entrenchment bonus making it harder to destroy those positions

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 17
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