Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #4 Map Making Part Three

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #4 Map Making Part Three

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SPWaW Thread Hall of Fame >> Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #4 Map Making Part Three

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Scenario Design 101 - Art of War #4 Map Making Part Three - 4/24/2001 6:09:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Onward in our map making. If you have done your homework, you should have a map that looks something like this.

If you have not done that, look for the posting, Scenario Design 101 #3, Map Making, Part 2. Check that out and then come back here. In our last session we put in the natural terrain, streams, hills, grass and trees. Now we are going to add man-made terrain, such as buildings, roads, crops, walls, etc. Same procedure as always. Start SPWAW, go to Solitaire Play, Editor, Load (map) and load in your map. And Remember to SAVE after each step! Take the time to do it. It is worth it! First we are going to build a road. Let's make it a dirt one. By now you know which button to choose. After clicking on it, click on hex 0,18. Then click on hex 6,18. Voila! A section of road! Now we cross the stream by clicking first on 6,18, then on 8,22. Notice that the editor put in a bridge for you in hex 6,19. Continue with your road in hexes 8,22-18,22, then 18,22-19,25, next 19,25-37,25, then 37,25-42,15 and finally 42,15 to 49,15. Now you have a road that crosses your map. Remember you can add a roadbed of rough terrain or rocks, but in most cases I would leave it as is. Now some farms since this is open country would be nice. First click on the "wooden building" button, then click in hex 35,27. Keep clicking there till you find a building that looks "farm-like." Then put another one in 37,27. To get two buildings that are identical when you find one you like, hit the "z" key. Then your building is locked. You can put in as many as you like. Now we need some crops since this is a farm. Click on the "yellow field" button, type "0" and click on hex 35,20. Then do it four times straight across. Now go to 35,20 click, and do it three more times, straight across. And do it one more time in hex 34,31 and click five times straight across. Now you should have a nice crop setting behind your buildings. Now, why not put a hedge around this farm. Go ahead, you are on your own now. Give it a shot! And that is your farm. I want you to make 2 more farms, one centered on hex 44,13, and another at 9,24. Go ahead. Trial and error. Keep saving. Finally, you should have a map that looks like this.

Now if wish to add other terrain features, such as marsh or mud, or whatever you think would fit the situation, go ahead. Again, continue to save periodically. Remember too, that we have a ton of ready made maps and more to come in the Map Depot: http://www.matrixgames.com/depot/gamedepot.asp Make sure you have that text file ready and hold on to your map. We're going to put some soldiers on it next week. Wild Bill

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

Post #: 1

- 4/24/2001 11:19:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

A bump! :D WB

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 2

- 4/24/2001 2:32:00 PM

Brutto-Bob

Posts: 173
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Genoa, Liguria, Italy
Status: offline

I've a question about map editing: How the multi-hex building button works? I select it and at the promp asking the number of hexes I insert (for example)two. Next I click on the map but nothing happens... Thanks

_____________________________

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 3

- 4/24/2001 4:49:00 PM

Don

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline

When you hit the button for multi-hex buildings, it prompts you for a number for the typeof building you want, eg., industrial, city, residential. If you click and nothing happens, you probably have something in the way. A tree or something in any of the surrounding hexs can make nothing show up - make sure the area is clear. Hope this is what you wanted to know.

_____________________________

Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 4

- 4/24/2001 10:20:00 PM

dfsrusa

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: St. Paul, Minnesota
Status: offline

Wild Bill, I have a question about v5. What will happen with all the maps and scenarios that I've made when I upgrade from 4.5 to v5? Will I still be able to use them. If so, will I need to do anything special to them. Also, will the cost for units be radically different in v5 from v4.5? I've got a campaign going where my oppenent and I have already allocated points and units over a 8 x 8 grid of 100 x 100 maps. I'm sure we'll want to upgrade our ongoing campaign from 4.5 to 5, but am trying to see what bumps it will cause us to do so. Thanks, Scot Stephenson

_____________________________

Carpe Diem

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 5

- 4/25/2001 12:13:00 AM

Dan Bozza

Posts: 800
Joined: 3/28/2001
From: Mount Tabor NJ USA
Status: offline

Thanks for the tip about locking in a building via the "z" key. I was trying to create a block of rowhouses and factories, and went a little nuts clicking through all the buildings each time. :mad: Just a thought - would it be possible to have the terrain & buldings cycle through as opposed to appearing randomly?

_____________________________

"Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means."

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 6

- 4/25/2001 1:46:00 AM

Don

Posts: 810
Joined: 7/12/2000
From: Elk Grove, CA (near Sacramento)
Status: offline

quote:

What will happen with all the maps and scenarios that I've made when I upgrade from 4.5 to v5? Will I still be able to use them. If so, will I need to do anything special to them.

They should be fine - the only thing that would mess them up is OOB changes. You'll have to try the scenarios in 5.0 to see if they're ok, and if not change them accordingly. The maps especially should be ok, but you can always open them up in the 5.0 editor, maybe add a new feature (or not), then save it. Boz, I have no idea wether they can control how the buildings cycle. It does drive you crazy, doesn't it? :)

_____________________________

Don "Sapper" Llewellyn

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 7

- 4/25/2001 2:18:00 AM

Dan Bozza

Posts: 800
Joined: 3/28/2001
From: Mount Tabor NJ USA
Status: offline

Boz, I have no idea wether they can control how the buildings cycle. It does drive you crazy, doesn't it? :)[/QB][/QUOTE] It's always the one neat looking buiding you want that you click by too fast; and then it's another 20 minutes of clicking before it reappears! GRRR!

_____________________________

"Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means."

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 8

- 4/25/2001 2:41:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Lets answer here. Most versions pre-5.0 should work just fine. As Don has said, you may find an occasional scenario with a few weird icons. The ones that come with 5.0 (190 of them) should be free and clear of that problem. We tried to check them all. If we missed one, let me know when you get 5.0 As to points, I don't believe that there is any significant change in point values that will affect your game, Scot. Buildings..you're gonna love this. Now you can choose a building type (wood, stone, multihex, etc) then hit Shift+1 (!) then type in an icon # and voila! You have it. What I have done is to make you a set of prints showing the various buildings, old and new and imprinting the icon # on top of the building. Soon as I can get Rick to help me, I'll post one example. You'll find these as map files in SPWAW 5.0 and they save hours of time, believe me. And you are gonna love this one! In 5.0 now either in the scenario list page or in the editor scenario list page, you can type Alt-J, then type in a # and boom! You are there. For example, you don't want to scroll, but you want to get to scenarios beginning with 300. Start the game. Go to scenario listing, then hit Alt-J. Then type in 300. Hit "Enter" and just that quick Scenario 300+ are up on your screen. I really like this one. As more and more scenarios are added to the game, this will be a supremely useful tool. Wild Bill [ April 24, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 9

- 4/25/2001 2:53:00 AM

Dan Bozza

Posts: 800
Joined: 3/28/2001
From: Mount Tabor NJ USA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Lets answer here. Buildings..you're gonna love this. Now you can choose a building type (wood, stone, multihex, etc) then hit Shift+1 (!) then type in an icon # and voila! You have it. What I have done is to make you a set of prints showing the various buildings, old and new and imprinting the icon # on top of the building. Soon as I can get Rick to help me, I'll post one example. You'll find these as map files in SPWAW 5.0 and they save hours of time, believe me. Wild Bill [ April 24, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]

AWESOME! Sounds Great! :D

_____________________________

"Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means."

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 10

- 4/25/2001 4:03:00 AM

adantas

Posts: 241
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: S�o paulo - Brazil
Status: offline

Mein Oberst! I'm doing all the homeworks and besides I can't post so often, I'm paying all attention to the class. About buildings, just a question? in some scenarios I saw some buildings that I couldn't find into the editor so how can we put these kind of buildings? I'm working at an Heraklion Scen now and covering the harbor there's an old Venetian fortress so I don't know how can I built this one into the scen. Keep up with the good job Teacher!! :D -------------- Senta � Pua!!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 11

- 4/25/2001 6:57:00 AM

Banjo

Posts: 717
Joined: 3/10/2001
From: Southwest Missouri
Status: offline

Hello all, this class has got me staying up way too late working on map design. My first question is about elevation. I have located some grat maps of the Utah beach to a bit beyound Ste. Mer-Eglise. Using the Hexgrid program that I downloaded several months ago from another site, I have been able to make a 50 meter hexmap of the area. Some of the maps that I have located online and from books in the library show the details of individual buildings and rows of bocage. Man what a nightmare that area was. I am still trying figure out where to start in making a scenario from some of this information. As I was saying, some of these maps show contour lines of elevtion changes of 10 feet. I am assuming that the elevations in SPWAW are about the same. Is the difference between level 1 an level 2 about 10 feet? And if so over the course of say a kilometer, the elevation changes 20 feet. Say if you start in hex #1 the elevation is 0. Half a click away it is level 1(10 feet) and a km away it is 2(20 feet). Standing looking at the hex at 20" above sealevel and beyond, the terrain rises gradually, and there is no gradient change in that slope to form a crest in your line of sight. But standing to the left or right of this gradient, the same distance away you are on two different sides of the hill. I guess that by adding the level changes and blocking the los of the gradient that I mentioned first for a hex or two is the price of terrain accuracy. I was wondering what you all have to say about that. Second, have any of you heard of the Hexgrid program? I bring this up again since some may not have heard of this. It is a program that lets you superimpose a hexgrid over an image at whatever scale you wish. If you have an image of a map, you load the image into the program, tell the program how wide the image is in miles or kilometers. Next you tell it how wide you want the hexes in the map to be. In this case 50 meters, and presto! you have a hexmap that is 2 km wide, with 50 meter hexes!!!! Used in conjunction with photographs and other written accounts and description, you can put together highly detailed game maps. I cannot remember where I downloaded this from, but it is a GREAT tool. Of course you still have to input all of this info into the map editor of SPWAW manually, but it is something that we have to do anyway. I still have to fude a bit here and there to make the details work out right in this process, but it takes some of the guesswork out of the proccess. I'm wondering if the Matrix folks could put up a links section that deals with strictly maps, aerial recon type photos and to+e's. I know there are lots of links to other wargame and history sites and this is a bit redundant, but it's tough and time consuming trying to wade through the sites that give you world book encyclopedia type information. I love this game. My bookmark list is getting real crowded. It will take hours to weed out and sort the material. Or how about a separate discussion for info sites? See how this design process grows!!!

_____________________________

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 12

- 4/25/2001 10:42:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Adantas, my good friend. Some of the newer graphics may not be in the version you have but I promise you that there are hundreds of new ones of all types in 5.0. You'll be in shock (pleasantly so) when you see them. Just hold on a bit longer. They are coming very, very soon! Sorry to keep you up late, Banjo. Sounds like you are moving to the head of the class with all that extra-curricular work. Terrain rises and increases are delicate matters that also require some practice. As you may remember from the old board games, one of the most argued and difficult points was that of "line of sight." Remember that? :D Now the computer must determine that for you, but it does not always correspond to reality as you might think. For example a rise of ten feet might go on for 30 feet, very gradual, thus not affecting los. In most games however, this is not possible. Instead you go from 0 level to +10 level, which is not a graded incline but a sharp rise. So you must occasionally, as you make your map, have a few units on the board (you can delete them later)to test LOS. That way you can realistic but not to the point of killing the playability of the game. Perhaps we can have a series just on map-making. There are some real pros out there who could do a great job of that! This is great stuff fellas. I feel the enthusiasm. Thanks for your posts! Wild Bill

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 13

- 4/25/2001 5:45:00 PM

ruxius

Posts: 909
Joined: 5/5/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline

Hi Mr. Banjo..as you will understand we are a bit curious about that HexGride program... I tried to find it throught the web but I have no matches about that.. It looks like a VERY NEW GREAT add-on to the SPWAW editor..If I have well understood it can be used to have a real map picture being imported into the SPWAW editor..then you have to add hills and rivers to it to have the correct correspondance between what the map shows and what it represents in the game..so if you have a tree in the picture there you have to put a tree there in that hex..is that ? The feature is that you got a hex structure to that picture...am I right ? Ok I buy it ! If this is correct it can be used to put new buildings in your map through a good scanner... Now Will you help us to find that site ? I am always more often persuated this is a classroom with the SPWAW best engineers on it !!! Thank you !

_____________________________

Italian Soldier,German Discipline!

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 14

- 4/25/2001 6:28:00 PM

Banjo

Posts: 717
Joined: 3/10/2001
From: Southwest Missouri
Status: offline

Hi Ruxious, the hexgrid program makes a map that to my knowledge cannot be used directly with SPWAW. Think of it as making a game board map that you use as a reference while creating your SPWAW map through the game editor. As far as I know the two maps are not the same types of files. For instance, a road shown on the hexgrid map will not go from the center of one hex to the center of another. You have to enter EVERYTHING into the SPWAW map editor manually. Hex by hex. Abit of fudging is neccessary to make it all work, but it gives a very accurate approximation. So far I have worked on using it to create a map that is pretty good. I have quite a bit of work to do in making one that is playable with the scale and #of turns available. I will post more details of that as time goes on. The program I think came from a site called Stratsoft.co.UK, which when I searched for it last night did not come up. I have spent some time searching for it but cannot find it anywhere online. I think I got it through a wargaming site or a roleplaying game site, that had downloadable files for gaming aids. So far my search has come up empty. Perhaps I could send it as a zip file via email, Although I have never tried it. It is freeware and it says to share it so I see no problems with legal issues. Perhaps, one of the SPWAW sites could get it and set it up as a download from their site if I can get it to them.If I can figure out how to send copies, I would gladly send it to anyone who wants it as it is a great utility for mapboard making. As I said before, a lot of work is still neccessary to actually make an SPWAW map from it, but it's a great way to start. Finding maps or aerial photos of the area you want are real hard to find that have the detail for 50 meter hexes. In that case a lot of imagination comes in to make it work. Some of the maps I have found just need a bit of work to make all of the pieces fit into a playable SPWAW map. I have to get out the door to go to work now, but will be back working on finding our where that Site is when I get home. In the meantime, maybe one of our other scenario makers will have some more knowledge of where this program is. I think there are a few other programs out there that do the same thing. One is called Campaign Cartographer, but it is a commercial product. Try doing a search for map making and see what comes up. Maybe one of the sites has a link as to where this is. My email is Minstrilbob@aol.com if anyone wants mor3e info. Good luck.

_____________________________

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 15

- 4/25/2001 8:48:00 PM

dfsrusa

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/26/2001
From: St. Paul, Minnesota
Status: offline

Wild Bill, You mentioned having a unit or two on the map to test LOS while making the map. (And btw, I do remember LOS arguments with the board games, and my little piece of string.) About the units, how does one get them there on the map in the map editor? Thanks, Scot Stephenson

_____________________________

Carpe Diem

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 16

- 4/25/2001 11:43:00 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

To do this, Scot, you will have to buy in the unit deploy screen a couple of units, then switch back and forth. 1. Edit map 2. Save map 3. Exit map editor, go to unit deploy editor 4. check your los 5. exit unit deploy, go to map editor. 6. make adjustments. You'll need to keep doing this until you know you have it like you want it. WB

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 17

- 4/26/2001 10:32:00 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Okay as promised (and many thanks to Rick "Tankhead" Cloutier for his help), here is a sample of these new icon sheets that will help you pick your buildings with much more ease and less "clicking" than before.

Any day now :D Wild Bill

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 18

- 4/28/2001 7:53:00 AM

Coachace

Posts: 49
Joined: 3/13/2001
From: Fountain Valley, California
Status: offline

Banjo & Ruxious: The hexgrid program you were discussing sounded interesting. I found it at [URL=http://www.stratsoft.co.uk/download.htm ]www.stratsoft.co.uk/download.htm [/URL]The price is filling out and submitting a simple online questionaire. The site seemed busy or perhaps it's normally slow. The file is about 1.5MB, having been written in VB.

_____________________________

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 19

- 4/28/2001 12:11:00 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline

Thanks CoachAce. I know Banjo will be glad you found it. I'll check it out too (though Banjo was good enough to send me a oopy. Thanks!) We're moving on come Monday. Now we are going to talk about some basic things in setup before picking our units. See you then! Wild Bill

_____________________________

In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 20

- 4/28/2001 6:12:00 PM

Banjo

Posts: 717
Joined: 3/10/2001
From: Southwest Missouri
Status: offline

Great to hear that it's still available online. I had trouble finding it again. Glad the copy made it to you Bill. You have to find the size of the map horizontally in miles or kilometers, from edge to edge. Then enter the size hexes you want, and run the program. It's pretty simple. Then you need to check to make sure that the hexes are the proper size. I try to make sure that on the map scale, there are about 6.4 hexes per mile. I have to look up the conversions for miles to km. I know it's .64, but I thinke to get the map to be more accurate, you need to take it out another few decimal points. especially on large maps where your converting 20 to 40 miles to km. Being a carpenter, when we lay out walls or plumb walls, a sixteenth of an inch per foot off doesnt sound like much. When you are working with several feet, it really adds up and can be noticable to the eye sometimes. Lets work with this and compare notes. We work half days some saturdays so I have to get out and build some walls this morning. Good luck and thanks for the info. I'll check it out and see if they added some new featues since I downloaded it last.

_____________________________

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 21

- 4/29/2001 5:58:00 PM

ruxius

Posts: 909
Joined: 5/5/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline

Also many thanks from me I started now to download it..

_____________________________

Italian Soldier,German Discipline!

(in reply to Wild Bill)

Post #: 22

- 4/29/2001 6:09:00 PM

RockinHarry