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Forage calculation error - 3/7/2008 11:00:18 PM   
Minedog

 

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Has a forage calculation error been reported?

For example, a corps starts in Lemburg (Forage Value 3) and moves through two forage value 4 areas.
According to the rules (as per p.64 in the manual) the starting area is not counted, yet the calculation indicates the base value is 3. I think that is only possible if the start area is counted.

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/11/2008 2:46:41 AM   
Ralegh


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No - such an error has not been reported. - Please go to the tech suppot forum and report it.

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/11/2008 5:16:42 AM   
Murat


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don't foget about move order. each corp that passes through an area can gain a modifier of +1 up to a max of +2.

< Message edited by Murat -- 3/14/2008 4:34:14 AM >

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/11/2008 6:19:45 AM   
Ralegh


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Really? I wasn't aware of that rule (in EIA/EIH or the PC game).
AFAIK, its only other corps that end their movement in the last area that reduce the forage value for that area.

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/11/2008 6:18:17 PM   
Murat


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EIA/EIH for sure, not sure about EIANW. There was an optional rule restricting the modifier to a +2 max.

< Message edited by Murat -- 3/14/2008 4:34:34 AM >

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/11/2008 6:43:55 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

don't foget about move order. each corp that passes through an area reduces the forage value by 1.


Sounds more like a house rule, or something optional.
Its not described in the EIA rulebook. section 7.4.1

Regards
Bresh

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/12/2008 6:24:47 AM   
Murat


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7.3.1.4 + 7.4.1.2 can give up to a +2 modifier 

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/12/2008 12:18:53 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

7.3.1.4 + 7.4.1.2 can give up to a +2 modifier 



EIA-rule
7.3.1.4
gives no description that passing an area reduces forage values.
EIA-
7.4.1.2 states the modifiers are for corps occupying the area at your forage time, which is max +2.
No sub-rule describes reducing forage values for corps who had only passed.

So again im implied to say eighter you where wrong, or used some houserule.

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 3/12/2008 12:33:45 PM >

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/13/2008 6:24:50 AM   
Murat


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Let me clarify then. 7.3.1.4 states that all foraging is done WHILE moving. For each area you move through, each corp that occcupies that area (7.3.1.2) it modifies the roll by +1, up to a +2 modifier and you must use the lowest forage value. 

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/13/2008 12:05:27 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

Let me clarify then. 7.3.1.4 states that all foraging is done WHILE moving. For each area you move through, each corp that occcupies that area (7.3.1.2) it modifies the roll by +1, up to a +2 modifier and you must use the lowest forage value. 


You only roll for the area you occupy, you use the lowest forage value for areas you passed, not the modified value of the lowest area. Modifiers only apply for the area you roll in.

The term forage as they move is, you move 1 corps at a time, once you end it. You can forage roll for it. You do not have to wait for all corps to have moved, before rolling dice.
Im not even aware how you did this ? Did you move all corps, then forage after ? Or if you rolled early, would you moddify previous rolls if more corps passed one of the areas you moved through ?

Thats how it works.

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 3/13/2008 2:02:05 PM >

(in reply to Murat)
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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/13/2008 12:34:44 PM   
eske

 

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I'm sorry Murat, but as I read the EiA rules you are slightly wrong here (for once ). But judge for yourself. The relevant rules are here. (I don't know if EiH rules are different):

quote:

7.4.1.1 FORAGING PROCEDURE: A die is rolled for each foraging corps as it completes movement .... This die roll is modified as in 7.4.1.2, if any modifiers apply. The modified die result is than compared with the forage value of the area with the lowest forage value of all the areas passed through or stopped in, not counting the area in which the corps started ....

quote:

7.4.1.2 FORAGING MODIFIERS: When the die is rolled for a foraging corps, the following cumulative modifiers may apply:

7.4.1.2.1 Other Corps In The Area: For each other unbesieged corps in the area it currently occupies, whether that major power's or not (including friendly and enemy corps and corps which have, and corps which have not, already moved during this step), "+1" is added to the result of the die, up to a maximum of "+2". ....

7.4.1.2.2 Unused Movement Points: For each movement point the corps did not use, one is subtracted from the die. EXCEPTION: The die is not modified due to unused movement points if the corps is besieging or plans to besiege enemy forces in the area.
7.4.1.2.3 Force Marching: If the corps force marched, "+1" is added to the die roll.
7.4.1.2.4 Winter: If it is winter "+ 2" is added to the die roll unless the corps is not in the "winter zone" (see 9.0).
7.4.1.2.5 In Own Territory: If the corps did not move into an area outside the major power's territory this Turn and is not now in such an area, "1" is subtracted from the die roll.


So in short you apply modifiers based on the area the corps ends its movement in and compare it to the worst forage value of any area the corps entered or ended in during movement. The forage value of areas are not altered by corps passing throug it, or by other corps in areas passed through.

All I've seen this is also true for EiANW.

quote:

7.3.1.4 FORAGING WHILE MOVING: Although the rules are covered in the Supply Step, foraging (see 7.4.1) is performed while corps are being moved.


This rule interacts with the rule of moving one corps at the time in the sense that you move one corps, then forage for it (unless you supply it), then move next corps and forage it, and so on. This implies it matters which corps you move first. Corps that hasn't moved affects forage of others corps moving before them. Corps that has moved affects forage of corps moving after. But always max modifier for other corps is +2.

I have not checked if this is also how EiANW does it, or if it simply takes the ending position of all corps. Otherwise undo unit move certainly will confuse unexperienced players I think...

On the other hand understanding how to use the forage rules makes a big difference to the amount of forage losses you suffer.
So forgive me for elaborating on EiA rules...

/eske

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/13/2008 6:38:41 PM   
Murat


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It's simple, if you move a corps through an area with 2 or more corps already in it, you are getting a +2 modifier to your roll against the lowest forage area your moved through. If you moved through an area with only 1 corp in it, you get a +1 modifier. If you manage to move through areas without corps then there is no modifier. If foraging is done WHILE MOVING, you have to take into account unbeseiged corps occupying areas that you move through (you would be currently occupying that area as you moved).

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/13/2008 7:39:27 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

It's simple, if you move a corps through an area with 2 or more corps already in it, you are getting a +2 modifier to your roll against the lowest forage area your moved through. If you moved through an area with only 1 corp in it, you get a +1 modifier. If you manage to move through areas without corps then there is no modifier. If foraging is done WHILE MOVING, you have to take into account unbeseiged corps occupying areas that you move through (you would be currently occupying that area as you moved).


I dont know why you dont understand this.
Why do you think the west part-map of EIA has forage-supply modifiers written in one of the boxes ?
you only roll forage in your end area.
You use the lowest forage value an area has which you passed.
Forage modifiers, Note not forage area modifiers:
-1 own MP teritory.
-1 pr unused movement point
+1 if forced marched
+2 Winter.
0-+2 Corps OCCUPYING in the area, you roll forage.

Nowhere in the rules state that a forage value is lowered, its modifiers for forage-rolls, not for forage values.


WHILE MOVING means you move 1 corps at a time, and do not need to end movement for all corps before rolling forage. But you do end the corps movement once you forage.

Did you actually play with this ? So lets see, Russia useally moves first, all his corps wait rolling forage, till all nations have moved. Since all corps passing the areas his corps passed reduces the forage value. I know you probaply just used that special rule for each nation, but its wrong, sorry to say.

Did you roll forage for each area passed ?

Corps in areas you pass has have nonewhatsoever effects. Never ever heard anyone use those rules you mention.

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 3/13/2008 10:06:59 PM >

(in reply to Murat)
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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/14/2008 4:36:01 AM   
Murat


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Always ready to admit if I am wrong so:
quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh
you only roll forage in your end area.


Quote the rule.

quote:

You use the lowest forage value an area has which you passed.

We agree here, which by the way contradicts your last statement.

quote:

Forage modifiers, Note not forage area modifiers:
-1 own MP teritory.


This applies to the lowest area you moved through as you already pointed out, NOT the area you end up in.

quote:

-1 pr unused movement point
+1 if forced marched
+2 Winter.

Again, agreed.

quote:

0-+2 Corps OCCUPYING in the area, you roll forage.


Again, quote the rule. What you are stating here says the forage area, something you disagreed with since you said the ending area, while the rules I stated indicates any areas that you move through.

quote:

Nowhere in the rules state that a forage value is lowered, its modifiers for forage-rolls, not for forage values.

Agreed. I now see the confusion you are having with this part. I mispoke up top, I meant the modifier can be gained as you move and modify your roll by up to a +2 depending on how many corps you move through.

WHILE MOVING means you move 1 corps at a time, and do not need to end movement for all corps before rolling forage. But you do end the corps movement once you forage.

Did you actually play with this ? So lets see, Russia useally moves first, all his corps wait rolling forage, till all nations have moved. Since all corps passing the areas his corps passed reduces the forage value. I know you probaply just used that special rule for each nation, but its wrong, sorry to say.

Did you roll forage for each area passed ?

Corps in areas you pass has have nonewhatsoever effects. Never ever heard anyone use those rules you mention.

Regards
Bresh




< Message edited by Murat -- 3/14/2008 4:40:24 AM >

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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/14/2008 5:35:27 AM   
bresh

 

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Not sure how you cant understand the rule. But years of using it wrong might do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

Always ready to admit if I am wrong so:
quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh
you only roll forage in your end area.


Quote the rule.

quote:

You use the lowest forage value an area has which you passed.

We agree here, which by the way contradicts your last statement.

No it doesnt, I always said you use lowest forage value, corps do not affect a forage value, they affect the forage roll, which is a dieroll when forage in the end area. Only corps occupying your end-area affects forage-roll.

quote:

Forage modifiers, Note not forage area modifiers:
-1 own MP teritory.


This applies to the lowest area you moved through as you already pointed out, NOT the area you end up in.

quote:

-1 pr unused movement point
+1 if forced marched
+2 Winter.

Again, agreed.

quote:

0-+2 Corps OCCUPYING in the area, you roll forage.


Again, quote the rule. What you are stating here says the forage area, something you disagreed with since you said the ending area, while the rules I stated indicates any areas that you move through.
No this is repeat, it doesnt, I always said you use lowest forage value of area passed, but you roll in end area, corps do not affect a forage values, they affect the forage roll, which is a dieroll when forage in the end area. Only corps occupying your end-area affects forage-roll.


quote:

Nowhere in the rules state that a forage value is lowered, its modifiers for forage-rolls, not for forage values.

Agreed. I now see the confusion you are having with this part. I mispoke up top, I meant the modifier can be gained as you move and modify your roll by up to a +2 depending on how many corps you move through.
No you only apply forage-roll modifiers (here) "corps-modifiers" 0-(+2) only apply in the area you end in, hence corps occupy end area, not passed they have to be in your end-area or they do not apply, they would only apply if you ended your move there

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Murat)
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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/14/2008 8:16:03 AM   
Jimmer

 

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Murat, you're wrong. And, he DID quote the rule. However, he quoted it from EiA, which doesn't really apply (even though it is very clear that foraging occurs in the area you finish movement in).
However, here are the relevant rules from EiANW (which just happen to come to the same conclusion):
quote:

10.5.1 Foraging

“Foraging” represents living off the country. When a corps ceases movement it may elect (or be forced) to “forage” rather than use depot supply.

quote:


Foraging Procedure

A random number between 1 and 6 is chosen for each foraging corps after it completes movement.

quote:


Foraging Modifiers

When a random number is chosen for a foraging corps, the following cumulative modifiers may apply:
Other Corps In The Area: For each other unbesieged corps in the area it currently occupies, whether that major power’s or not, “+1” is added to the random number result, up to a maximum of “+2”.



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RE: Forage calculation error - 3/14/2008 8:18:14 AM   
Jimmer

 

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Murat, I believe you are incorrect. And, he did quote the rule. However, he quoted it from EiA, which doesn't really apply.

However, here are the relevant rules from EiANW (which just happen to come to the same conclusion). Note that the last two only "count" as supporting our argument when coupled with the first, so don't attack these separately:

quote:


Foraging Modifiers

When a random number is chosen for a foraging corps, the following cumulative modifiers may apply:

Other Corps In The Area: For each other unbesieged corps in the area it currently occupies, whether that major power’s or not, “+1” is added to the random number result, up to a maximum of “+2”.


(These next two rules actually come before the previous one in the text, but I reversed the order to have the most important one come first.)

quote:

10.5.1 Foraging

“Foraging” represents living off the country. When a corps ceases movement it may elect (or be forced) to “forage” rather than use depot supply.


quote:


Foraging Procedure

A random number between 1 and 6 is chosen for each foraging corps after it completes movement.



< Message edited by Jimmer -- 3/14/2008 8:38:05 AM >


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At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

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