ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Harpoon 3 - Advanced Naval Warfare >> Harpoon 3 ANW Support >> ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar

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ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/8/2008 4:21:02 AM

Andynator

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline

Hi,

When creating ASW missions or patrols for P-3's or Vikings, when I set the sensor settings in the mission editor to "active sonar", the a/c will only drop the passive buoys, never the active ones unless I do it manually. Once all of the passive buoys are deployed and sink, the A/C returns to base.

Is this an error?

This is the latest version I d/l but I think 3.7, not 3.8.

Regards,
Andy

Post #: 1

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/9/2008 2:49:13 AM

Andynator

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline

It is the Harpoon 3 Standard Database by "Old School".

I have been working my way through the Cold War scenarios and have seen this behavior in all of them, so far.

I just loaded and ran "Watch That First Step". I did see that the P-3's will drop all of the DIFAR sonarbuoys before using DICASS, but the DICASS buoys would never go active, even when persecuting (and destroying) a contact.

I can turn them only manually.

I did verify active sonar "on" and weapons-free in the mission editor, but no luck.

Also seeing that helos performing formation duty will not activate DICASS buoys unless it is done manually.

Thanks and regards,
Andy

Post #: 2

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/10/2008 8:02:29 PM

BurntFingers

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

I am pretty sure this is normal behaviour... active sonarbuoys are detectable. Seem to recall in one of the manuals, it did say that active sonobuoys will only go active when ordered. Most Active sonobuoys work as Passive when not in active mode.

If a sub hears an active sonarbuoy ahead, it knows where not to go? ;)

EDIT:

Couple more points. First, the MAD detector on the P3 is an excellent way of detecting a sub - just keeping moving in a ladder pattern to clear an area (although MAD isn't so good on subs with non-steel hulls). The P3, like all fixed wing aircraft, doesn't have a sonar of it's own.

2) Helos with dipping sonar will always go active when they are at Vlow altitude. Some helos have MAD but no sonar - some have sonar but no MAD. Ideally, they have both.

3) No aircraft can carry enough buoys to cover the ocean. The idea is that you use them to localise MAD contacts; to create barrers around sensitive units; and (best of all) across narrow "chokepoints". Just laying a long line of buoys in the middle of nowhere isn't going to get you many sub contacts.

4) When you set a units EMCON status, you are doing it JUST FOR THAT UNIT. Not for any sensor units/buoys/decoys that it deploys.

To be honest, the Mission Editor isn't nearly as good for ASW patrols as hand plotting a "ladder search" with a MAD equipped aircraft. Takes a few minutes, but it tends to be more thorough. Ignore the stars, just look at the lines;-

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Get the idea? So long as the spacing is less than twice the distance of the MAD detector, you'll get very good coverage. Certainly more space detected than dropping buoys.

If you set a "zone" on a mission (3 or more reference points) then the ASW will just bounce around the middle of the zone. going from edge mid-point to edge-mid point. Set one point and the unit just orbits that point. Set two points (probably most useful) and the aircraft will go back and forth between those two points, similar to a "racetrack" pattern.

< Message edited by BurntFingers -- 3/10/2008 9:48:23 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/11/2008 7:19:22 PM

BurntFingers

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
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From the H2, H3 and H3 ANW manuals;-

quote:

11.4 Other Sensors

11.4.1 Sonobuoys
Anti-submarine aircraft, both fixed-wing and helicopters, use sonobuoys
to detect submarines. Sonobuoys are dropped in the water from the aircraft and transmit to the aircraft what they sense in the water. There are basically two types of sonobuoys: active and passive. A passive sonobuoy listens to the ocean and transmits any passive detections it makes directly to the aircraft. An active sonobuoy remains passive until it is turned on.

To turn on an active sonobuoy, select it and then click the Sensor
toolbar button. Set the Sonar selection to Active. Sonobuoys have a service life and will eventually cease to function and sink.
...

< Message edited by BurntFingers -- 3/11/2008 7:20:23 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/11/2008 8:48:34 PM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VCDH
Speed isn't really a factor since a weapon in the water means that you've been detected so pouring on the speed won't matter in any case.

Later
D

Unless I drop the torp into the water with the intention of getting you to "pour on the speed" and hence give yourself away for no reason other than there's a torp in the water...

Sorry this falls under my ammo is cheap and life is expensive theory.

Cheers

Darren

_____________________________

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Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
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Post #: 5

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/11/2008 11:38:33 PM

kipallen

Posts: 76
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline

What about Vikings on a carriers? Does it make sense to use the formation editor to place them using sonobouys? If so, should the Sonar status be passive?

Kip

(in reply to Bucks)

Post #: 6

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/12/2008 3:34:40 AM

Andynator

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline

Thanks to all. I was just wondering about active sonar buoys in the mission editor, not operational discipline. Although for my money, there are cases for each - passive and active. If I have to blast my surface group through narrow waters without freedom to manuever, active is the way to go. And P-3's dropping active sonar buoys can herd a sub-driver towards a friendly waiting in ambush.

Seems the game engine won't allow it, so I'll plan to work around it, right or wrong.

Thanks again,
Andy

Post #: 7

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/12/2008 4:07:59 AM

Bucks

Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

Personally I don't believe it's a doctrinal issue. At present the game engine simply won't allow platforms with only active type sonobuoys to deploy them. IMHO this is an issue. There's an old saying about a Tradesman not blaming his tools for a poor job. If the only tools I have at hand are active only sonobuoys then blind adherence to doctrine will be the death of me.

quote:

"Sorry Skipper, I can't launch the helo, it's only got active buoys and dropping them in that line is against doctrine..."

I've assigned Lynx HAS.3 to formations myself and simply nothing happens. My HAS.3's were loaded with active-only buoys and even if assigned to a formation patrol, they wont launch or simply hover awaiting bingo to arrive and land. Even check land based MPA's and how active buoys are never deployed by the game engine, it'll use all the passive buoys. So even when a contact is localised by passive means, exact localisation is never "speeded" up so to speak by dropping active buoys.

I have previously suggested to the DEV team that we modify the sensor intermittance dialogue to include a feature that would allow for the deployment of active buoys and their utilisation by the game engine. I suppose if there's enough support for such a feature I'll push for it to be considered by the C3 group for inclusion.

Any and all comments welcomed

Cheers

Darren

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Post #: 8

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/12/2008 11:54:09 PM

FreekS

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Deleted!

< Message edited by FreekS -- 3/12/2008 11:55:52 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/17/2008 5:47:03 PM

BurntFingers

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

I've assigned Lynx HAS.3 to formations myself and simply nothing happens.

Not disagreeing with as far as the issues go - just two points;-

1) The Lynx - all helos with a dipping sonar - would use that in preference?

2) Sonobuoy spacing should be based on range. If the sonobuoy has a range greater than 1NM, surely it should be spaced further apart when a platform is dropping a line of them?

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Post #: 10

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/17/2008 8:58:44 PM

kipallen

Posts: 76
Joined: 5/17/2006
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I still need an answer to my original question. Does it make sense to use the formation editor to place Vikings on ASW patrols and if so, what should be their EMCON status?

(in reply to BurntFingers)

Post #: 11

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/18/2008 3:52:44 PM

BurntFingers

Posts: 155
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kip

I still need an answer to my original question. Does it make sense to use the formation editor to place Vikings on ASW patrols and if so, what should be their EMCON status?

Depends on tactical situation. Also on player temperament. Using the Mission Editor is not as good as manual plotting, but sometimes you just don't have time to keep manually tweaking them - too much going on elsewhere.

If you have air supremacy (no danger of losing the Vikings to enemy aircraft), surprise, and are definite that no surface vessels with SAMs or AAA lurk in that area, then leaving radars on loses you little and can potentially gain you extra tactical data. Although if a sub has a SAM system (DO NOT LAUGH - SOME DBS HAVE 'EM) then potentially, at periscope depth, a sub can nail a Viking or 3. Rare but possible.

If you are not sure about enemy air strength, and have very good surface radar coverage (and you'll usually have Hawkeyes if you have Vikings) then Dale's approach is sensible - better safe than sorry.

Just to finish - Vikings are no longer ASW assets (I think changed in the late 90s) so if you use them in a modern date scenario as ASW aircraft - you are wasting them. Nowadays they are used as an extra (slow but long range) strike asset OR (most valuable sometimes) as tankers to give other aircraft longer range.

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Post #: 12

RE: ASW Missions / Patrols & Active Sonar - 3/18/2008 6:54:13 PM

kipallen

Posts: 76
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline

Thanks for the answers, guys. The more I play this game, the less I seem to know about naval warfare!

(in reply to BurntFingers)

Post #: 13

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