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Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/11/2008 5:21:13 PM

Yngvai

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David,

I've been having a lot of discussion with Scott about blocking downfield on pass plays. Right now, with the game as is, the game allows blocking downfield on pass plays. However, this is illegal in most real-life football leagues to my knowledge. It also creates a situation where you can create plays that, while not AI busters, pretty much put a receiver wide open every time....regardless of whether you're in man or zone. If in man, the man defender gets picked off and the receiver ends up open. If in zone, the zone defenders get blocked downfield and the receiver ends up open. It can put someone in a position where they have to create weird defenses just to stop one play.

I understand that it was decided that it should be left up to individual leagues whether to allow this or not, so that the game remains customizable. However, it can be difficult to enforce something like this in leagues.

Is there any way to add an option to the rules menu, whether to allow blocking downfield? Then the game remains customizable, but still realistic. Thus, if blocking downfield is not allowed, the game will call a penalty any time a defender blocks past the LOS before the pass is caught. If it is allowed, then no penalties would be called. Would this be something difficult to implement, David?

Post #: 1

RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/11/2008 9:59:35 PM

David Winter

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I'm afraid it's too late to make any changes like this for version 2.2. Any new features like this would be looked at for 3.0

thanks
David

(in reply to Yngvai)

Post #: 2

RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/11/2008 10:51:17 PM

Marauders

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Yngvai, we went over the blocking downfield rules in the Rules forum. The rules should be understood. It shouldn't matter what the game allows, as the game will allow many play types for differing leagues, but the rules of the league should be followed by league team owner regardless.

If there is a problem with a play, most leagues have rules to follow regarding this. Many have the play sent to the commissioner and a penalty is enforced for using an illegal play. Many league commisioners check any new plays before they can be used in the league. It is up to the league commissioner or league players to set up the rules for their own league.

I have to ask if these are blocks downfield by linemen or are they clearing routes? Clearing routes are legal as long as they don't use picks. I'd like to see the plays in question.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/11/2008 11:26:22 PM

Yngvai

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If you set up any eligible receiver to "block nearest" or "block out", if there is no defender right there on the LOS, then the receiver will move downfield to find someone to block. He will then pick off a defender in man coverage by physically blocking him, or physically contact and block a zone defender before the pass is thrown.

These aren't clearing routes. A clearing route simply sends a receiver through a zone to clear out the zone.

I'll PM you an example later this evening.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/11/2008 11:41:32 PM

Marauders

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quote:

If you set up any eligible receiver to "block nearest" or "block out", if there is no defender right there on the LOS, then the receiver will move downfield to find someone to block. He will then pick off a defender in man coverage by physically blocking him, or physically contact and block a zone defender before the pass is thrown.

That is illegal.

When creating a play, it is the responsibility of the coach to make sure the timing works just as in the real world. If a player is told to block downfield early, then the play is illegal. The PDS has wait states and other ways to get the timing to work.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/11/2008 11:45:45 PM

Yngvai

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Yngvai, we went over the blocking downfield rules in the Rules forum.� The rules should be understood.� It shouldn't matter what the game allows, as the game will allow many play types for differing leagues, but the rules of the�league should be followed by league team owner regardless.

I wanted to add that the only reason I bring this up is because, while I'm all for a game that is customizable, there needs to be enough basic rules so that it's still football. Holding, facemasks, false starts, pass interference, etc. are all penalties that are called in the game. Picks are illegal in most real-life football leagues that I know of, for obvious reasons, and penalty flags are thrown when they happen. IMO I think they should be called, or at least some type of option that you can set to determine whether they are called or not (just like you have options for unlimited motion, etc.).

I also certainly see your point regarding leagues and each league having its own rules, but as this game grows, with more and more custom plays and larger and larger leagues, it can be nearly impossible to enforce this type of rule...unless you have a webcam and are able to watch every game, or have access to opponent's plays (which you don't in every league), or have the time to go through each play one by one (which few people do, especially in big leagues).

There's also the issue of a play not being purposely designed as a pick, but it becomes inadvertent. In some ways, the "block nearest" or other block logic does a better job of blocking and picking up blitzers than the "pass block", so you might design a play using that logic. But the unintended effect is, depending on the defense, a receiver may move downfield and pick off a defender.

Anyway, just throwing out my opinion on that. I'm just interested in avoiding an FBPRO situation where you have to have a gazillion rules regarding play design.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 12:02:15 AM

David Winter

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Yngvai, I understand what you're asking for and I think it makes sense. Some of the design decisions are double edged swords and it's sometimes difficult to choose the direction everyone likes.

I'm afraid though that as version 2.2 is very close to being released, I'm not confident it's a good idea at this point to introduce a rule change and additional penalty. At the very least it would result in the requirement for additional testing of the features and workflows. That additional testing would mean I'd need to hold back the release of 2.2. And at the moment I don't have an estimate as to how long the delay would be.

Hope that makes sense.

thanks
David

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 12:11:20 AM

Yngvai

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

Yngvai, I understand what you're asking for and I think it makes sense.�Some of�the design�decisions are double edged swords and it's sometimes difficult to choose the direction everyone likes.�

I'm afraid though that as version 2.2 is very close to being released, I'm not confident it's a good idea at this point to introduce a rule change and additional penalty. At the very least it would result in the requirement for additional testing of the features and workflows. That additional testing would mean I'd need to hold back the release of 2.2. And at the moment I don't have an estimate as to how long the delay would be.

Hope that makes sense.

thanks
David

Oh, no, I never would expect this change to make it into 2.2. I know you guys are very close to being done with that, and I wouldn't want to see a delay any more than any one else would. I just think it's something to consider for future versions.

(in reply to David Winter)

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 12:13:50 AM

22sec

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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

I'm afraid though that as version 2.2 is very close to being released, thanks
David

< Message edited by 21SEC -- 3/12/2008 12:15:24 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 2:01:34 AM

garysorrell

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Well, as a commissioner, I definately agree on the rules aspect for play design. It's not something I did for the NCFL this season because I really wasnt ready for it.
That being said, as big a job as it would be to check each and every play, It is something I could do over time. I watch every game in my league, so I see the plays the owners use. And the NCFL does allow owners to view their opponents previous weeks plays folder. Most of the FootballPro leagues had various rules for play design, so no reason we cant do it in Max.

It might help those leagues interested, if a number of guys came up with a basic set of rules. Leagues could take that and use it as they see fit. Tweak it to the experience they want for their league and owners.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 6:59:37 PM

dreamtheatervt

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Yngvai, blocking downfield is allowed to some degree in college and high school for passes completed behind the LOS.

As for commish checking for illegal plays, I would send each owner a playbook or two, and if they found something suspicious the individual play could be sent out for league review. This would take the presssure and time off the commish to check every play.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 7:55:53 PM

Marauders

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quote:

... blocking downfield is allowed to some degree in college and high school for passes completed behind the LOS.

That is correct. We covered this not too long ago in this thread:

AI Busting Play - Blocking Down Field

quote:

As for commish checking for illegal plays, I would send each owner a playbook or two, and if they found something suspicious the individual play could be sent out for league review. This would take the presssure and time off the commish to check every play.

In league I have been in, the players are generally self regulatory, but the punishments for rules violating plays or AI busters are pretty heavy. The commissioner and assistant commisioner are also team owners, so it would be unfair to have them check plays for other teams.

Some leagues have a stand alone commissioner that checks new plays before they are added to playbooks.

(in reply to dreamtheatervt)

Post #: 12

RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 7:59:05 PM

Yngvai

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamtheatervt

Yngvai,� blocking downfield is allowed to some degree in college and high school for passes completed behind the LOS.

You're right. I think the rule is 5 yards downfield for college for passes completed behind the LOS. This is how some WR screens work in college. Not sure what the rule is for high school.

quote:

As for commish checking for illegal plays, I�would send each owner a playbook or two, and if they found something suspicious the individual play could be sent�out for league review.��This would take the�presssure and time off the commish to�check every play.�

This still brings up an issue. Let's say a league has agreed to college rules. So you have 5 yards downfield for any passes completed behind the LOS.

Now, I design a screen pass with some receivers with "block nearest" logic. Against some defenses, the receivers block 1-3 yards downfield before the pass is caught, and I'm OK regarding the rules.

But, I play it against some other defenses, with deeper zone defenders, and the receivers are blocking 7 yards downfield, and now the play is illegal.

So, you can have plays that are legal or illegal depending upon the defense. I can see a lot of problems trying to enforce this in a league.

Here's an idea for version 3. In the game menu, you have an option of how many yards downfield blocking is allowed before a pass. You can set it 0-100 yards. You have another option of "all passes" or "only passes behind LOS." Now, your game is customizable. If you want college rules, you set it at 5 yards downfield and only passes behind LOS. If you want NFL rules, you set it at 0 yards downfield and only passes behind LOS. If you want an "anything goes" game, you set it at 100 yards downfield and "all passes". Anything that breaks these rules will result in a penalty being called in the game.

Now, your game is customizable, but still remains true to real-life football. You also avoid any issues of enforcement or debate over whether a play is legal or not. You also have the added realism of a penalty being called for a play that breaks the rules.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be for David to implement something like this. As a former computer programmer myself, I would think it's just a matter of adding some simple checks to the code. For any players with "block" logic, the game checks to see how far past the LOS the player is, and if the pass has been caught yet (and where it is caught if it is). It then compares these to the rules set in the game menu. If it breaks the rule, then the game calls a penalty.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 8:57:08 PM

22sec

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yngvai

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamtheatervt

Yngvai,� blocking downfield is allowed to some degree in college and high school for passes completed behind the LOS.

You're right. I think the rule is 5 yards downfield for college for passes completed behind the LOS. This is how some WR screens work in college. Not sure what the rule is for high school.

I officiate HS football here in Mississippi, and the rule is if the pass is thrown behind the LOS then ineligble receivers can be downfield, which means they can be blocking downfield.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 10:34:54 PM

Marauders

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quote:

Here's an idea for version 3. In the game menu, you have an option of how many yards downfield blocking is allowed before a pass. You can set it 0-100 yards. You have another option of "all passes" or "only passes behind LOS." Now, your game is customizable. If you want college rules, you set it at 5 yards downfield and only passes behind LOS. If you want NFL rules, you set it at 0 yards downfield and only passes behind LOS. If you want an "anything goes" game, you set it at 100 yards downfield and "all passes". Anything that breaks these rules will result in a penalty being called in the game.

Just to note, NCAA rules allow a small area for blocking downfield on passing plays as long as the lineman is engaged with a defender. In the NFL, the rule is no blocking downfield, but refs often use a one yard buffer as a rules of thumb for players engaged in the trenches.

I am sure that David will look into this for future versions of the game, but I must state that I could set up plays for various leagues that violate the rules. The PDS allows many options, and I could abuse those options easily. Maximum Football cannot cover all of the rules in code without making the PDS a weak and restricted tool like some other computer football games have. It certainly cannot be done with a minimum of four different basic rulesets and many more that can be created as hybrids.

Power comes with responsibility. Team owners should do their best to understand the rules of the league and follow them. There may be a way to have the game check this. I don't do the code, so I don't know how difficult it would be, but there will allways be one more rule that can be broken, and there is just not an ability to code each one for each of dozens of league types that can be created with Maximum Football.

That does not mean it isn't a good idea to bring items like this up. Some rules are more important than others, and it may be a good idea to take a look at them to see if the game can enforce them in code.

In the mean time, this is an opportunity for leagues to set up some rules and take a look at their playbooks.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 11:04:43 PM

jdhalfrack

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And, just to add to the discusion:

Not that a comparison to Madden is necessary, because this game is better than Madden in almost all aspects, but even in a game like Madden, it�s hard to actually account for all rules in all leagues. For those of you who played Madden, you may remember Skeletor�s playbook editor (Skeletor is the one who turned me on to programming, just so you know). I was helping him with some playbook tables stuff when I realized that I could totally manipulate the playbooks to do things that in the real NFL you would get penalties for (like I could start a receiver 20 or 30 yards downfield BEFORE the snap). Now, Madden went to great lengths to try and make it so you could not create illegal plays, but when people are bound and determined to discover as much about a program�s inner workings as Skeletor, Calhoupe, and myself were, you discovered things like this.

So, all I�m trying to say is that it really is up to each team�s coach/manager and then each league�s commissioner to make sure that rules are enforced the way you want them to be. I agree that the more options for league rules and enforcement, the better, but that�s a hell of a lot of programming for something that�s �semi-minor.�

That's my two-cents.

JD

< Message edited by jdhalfrack -- 3/12/2008 11:53:46 PM >

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/12/2008 11:34:36 PM

Yngvai

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

quote:

Here's an idea for version 3. In the game menu, you have an option of how many yards downfield blocking is allowed before a pass. You can set it 0-100 yards. You have another option of "all passes" or "only passes behind LOS." Now, your game is customizable. If you want college rules, you set it at 5 yards downfield and only passes behind LOS. If you want NFL rules, you set it at 0 yards downfield and only passes behind LOS. If you want an "anything goes" game, you set it at 100 yards downfield and "all passes". Anything that breaks these rules will result in a penalty being called in the game.

Just to note,�NCAA rules allow�a small area for blocking downfield on passing plays as long as the lineman is engaged with a defender.

True, but that would still be encompassed with my suggestion. Simply set the "downfield" option to 5 yards, for "all passes".

quote:

� In the NFL, the rule is no blocking downfield, but refs often use�a one yard buffer as a rules of thumb for players engaged in the trenches.

Again, though, you could still set this with my suggestion. Set the "downfield" option to "1 yard" rather than "0 yards", for "passes behind LOS".

With my idea, you simply have an open box that you type any integer from 0-100 in, so you can set it exactly the way you would want it.

You could even get rid of the "all passes/passes behind LOS" thing if it complicates matters. Just do the 0-100 thing. While certainly not completely pure to some real-life league rules, it gets you closer, and in practical use wouldn't be much different from real life. For example, if I set it at 5 yards downfield, any screen passes would be most likely completed behind the LOS or close to the LOS anyway.

And if you want complete flexibility, simply have it set at 100 yards so a penalty is never called.

quote:

I am�sure that David will look into this for future versions of the game, but I must state that I could set up plays for various leagues that violate the rules.� The PDS allows many options, and I could abuse those options easily.� Maximum Football cannot cover all of the rules in code without making the PDS a weak and restricted tool like some other computer football games have.

Certainly, and I'm not suggesting that all rules should be covered in the code. It's simply not possible to do this. For example, formation rules differ among leagues...but that would be impossible to enforce with the PDS, and make it too limited.

My suggestion above, however, doesn't really limit the types of plays that can be designed. Plays are still designed any way you want to. It only means that penalties would be called for blocking beyond a certain point, based on how you set it up in the game menu. This "certain point" is completely customizable.

It's not really that much different from the "Ref" setting that is currently in the game. You are simply adding an additional item that refs can call.

quote:

Power comes with responsibility.� Team owners should do their best to understand the rules of the league and follow them.�

Again, I completely agree. I only bring up the blocking downfield thing because there is so much gray area. Like I said, I could design a play that is legal against some defenses, then illegal against other defenses. This can complicate issues when trying to interpret league rules. An in-game setting for yards downfield removes this.

< Message edited by Yngvai -- 3/12/2008 11:36:02 PM >

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/13/2008 12:41:47 AM

Marauders

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Yngvai, I agree with you. That would be a great setting to have.

I was just pointing out that it isn't a simple one size fits all sort of rule, and that is why it is likely not already hard coded into the game.

quote:

JD stated: ... I realized that I could totally manipulate the playbooks to do things that in the real NFL you would get penalties for (like I could start a receiver 20 or 30 yards downfield BEFORE the snap). Now, Madden went to great lengths to try and make it so you could not create illegal plays, but when people are bound and determined to discover as much about a program�s inner workings as Skeletor, Calhoupe, and myself were, you discovered things like this.

I agree, Tiberon limits what Madden can do to try to keep a player from being one's worst enemy. I'd rather have a much more open system that allows more to be done but also has to be kept in check by game players.

In this case, it would be nice to have a coded penalty, but I am sure coaches would have to look at their blocking schemes and player movements in most existing playbooks to be sure that the rule would be followed to the letter.

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/13/2008 12:58:25 AM

David Winter

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Adding the Down Field Blocking setting on the surface seems like the easiest solution from the consumer side of things. Although it would have to be 110 yards max.

quote:

I agree, Tiberon limits what Madden can do to try to keep a player from being one's worst enemy. I'd rather have a much more open system that allows more to be done but also has to be kept in check by game players.

While that approach has its merrits, the problem is that the majority of customers don't want to have to deal with that. One of the most common items of feedback I hear is that the game is currently too complicated. Adding more things that the player 'needs to keep in check' just drives up the 'too complicated' factor.

It's something I have to be careful about.

thanks
David

< Message edited by David Winter -- 3/13/2008 1:12:33 AM >

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RE: Blocking downfield on pass plays - 3/13/2008 1:35:55 AM

Marauders

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quote:

While that approach has its merrits, the problem is that the majority of customers don't want to have to deal with that. One of the most common items of feedback I hear is that the game is currently too complicated. Adding more things that the player 'needs to keep in check' just drives up the 'too complicated' factor.

If it is hard coded or not, customers will have to keep track of it. The one thing that is great about Maximum Football is that customers can do as much or as little as they want. Creating plays is complicated, but so is creating real plays. I was hoping to be able to help out in this area with my Playmaker Tools, but IP issues have been in the way up to this point.

In order for a hard penalty to be coded, the PDS will also have to have a new command Wait: On Pass. Otherwise, players will be illegally downfield regularly.

(in reply to David Winter)

Post #: 20