Hex Control and Surrendering

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Hex Control and Surrendering

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> Guns of August 1914 - 1918 >> Hex Control and Surrendering

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Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/12/2008 8:12:23 AM

wargamer123

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I think two very very important painful factors of GOA are hex control and what happens when a nation surrenders.

I have noticed that most of the time, if not all the time every tile within a surrendered nation remains to the other side. Accept in a few instances, i.e. Italy, I got Milan and Turin under my AH banner once when I invaded but the rest of the nation besides a little tiny Portion that was absorbed into the AH remained TE.

This is annoying... Plus when the AH surrenders, the Russians only get the Galician Forts and a little other crappy real estate, mostly plundered due to years of conflict!

When any other minor is taken the remaining TE or CP Hexes can be annoying to cope with require you exhaust time and energy sucking up anything of value in the Surrendering Nation... This may SLIGHTLY reflect reality if both sides were able to grab up neutral territory for a bid for control, though more often than not, forces get removed from the front when a surrender happens and throw back to their border. More over creating difficulties with the way that Surrender works... Making it not too valuable to conquest certain nations, but easier to just let them be...

I.E. Russia is not appealing for Germany to conquor, only to remove the threat, but most of her resources if the Russians put up a good fight will never get taken and the surrendering border yields very little for Germany

Furthermore I do not like how the AH gets Serbia or Romania or Italy or how borders get drawn if Bulgaria enters and Serbia surrenders. Historical perhaps but annoying. I guess one cannot entirely argue this, but wouldn't it reflect more history if say for instance, you have a certain level conquest of a certain nation it might yield more crop for your Investment in Offensive Investment?

Especially for the CP this rings true and since the CP is the Poor boy it would definitely level the playing field if the Surrendering wasn't hardcoded to Jip her off any valuable resources! It would also prove valuable for Russia and Italy if AH or OE throwns in the towel... As it stands I would almost give up AH if it meant Russia runs dry of blood and materials! As Russia your strategic options are semi-limited.... OE is not attractive, and AH's surrender won't neccesarily give you what you need!

I am just putting forth and asking for suggestions and ideas about the current system and if it could be improved upon, any takers?

Post #: 1

RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/12/2008 11:57:50 AM

boogada

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From: Germany
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I just wrote a long reply with detailed historical arguments when I noticed that this can be summed up very shorty:

1) hex control seems buggy sometimes. we need to fix it.

2) the game cannot simulate what happens after surrender, because that is not what happened. of course: individual nations were conquered and governments surrendered, BUT: almost no final decisions about the state of Europe after the war were made until the war was over and the other side completely surrendered and final peace treaties were signed that handed over territories, resources, people, ships etc... even signed treaties were obsolete after the CP lost the war. (the nations that were conquered during war all gained land after the war see Belgium, Romania, Serbia!)

some nations might have joined the war aiming at territories etc.. but once it turned into a world war, the struggle was all about total victory! once that was archived you could just get any war aim you wanted to and all that was in between was just provisional. but GOA ends when this is done. therefore it cannot simulate this at all!

3) AH is a special case because when it surrendered it would have fallen apart in all those nation states and some of them might have joined the entente, others the CP and some might have fought on their own.

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/12/2008 9:49:09 PM

Lascar

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This is perhaps the last major remaining problem with the game. Hex control after surrender is inconsistent and confusing and the inability of the CP to access all those Russian food and resources hexes east of the Dnepr river is unhistorical and also diminishes greatly the ability of the CP to continue fighting the western Allies and have a fair chance of victory.

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/13/2008 6:36:56 AM

SMK-at-work

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Thre were only 2 actual surrender/peace documents signed prior to "the end" of hte war (not counting hte Austrian and Romanian ones signed almost at hte end) - Bulgaria and Russia.

Serbia and Belgium never surrendered, and IMO it is wrong that they do so in the game - indeed Serbia reformed its army and fielded 3 corps in the Balkans by 1918.

So I agree that there's some stuff here that is still not right...

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/13/2008 7:30:25 PM

talldwarf

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A related issue is units past the surrender line. I had a CP corp isolated in southern Italy after Italy surrendered. It could not move. I couldn't even disband it. That was with 1.1 so it may have been resolved since then.

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/14/2008 10:07:07 AM

wargamer123

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Yes, quite vital issues. When the difference between 3-4 Tiles here or there can mean the "game" literally

BTW: dwarf I haven't seen washed up Corps in Italy so far, but sometimes they wash up in Major Surrender on the wrong side when the borders are redrawn, Italy seems okay.. AH and France I noticed issues with

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/14/2008 10:59:34 PM

davekinva

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What I don't get is why all those surrendered hexes under your control still aren't under your control.

For instance, in my second CP campaign, I just knocked Russia out of the war in 1917. Great, fantastic, wonderful. The new border moves to the east. Even better.

Yet, all those hexes are controlled by Russia. New border, still controlled by Russia. In game terms, that means I have to expend HQ refits to get to all the resource-rich hexes.

Now, that may be a useful kluge to simulate the use of resources to use/raid/steal surrendered resources, but HQ refits are REALLY expensive in game terms, and you still have to micromanage occupying unit movement in order to get what you want.

Yup, surrender is broken.

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/15/2008 2:47:19 AM

SMK-at-work

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Yes that's the bug - all those Russian hexes should be German, Austrian or Turkish.

Same sort of thing can happen in Italy - if there are other allied troops there then hexes in surrendered Italy can still be entered by them, and the war in Italy can continue, which is very irritating!!

< Message edited by SMK-at-work -- 3/15/2008 2:48:07 AM >

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/15/2008 3:47:43 AM

Lascar

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Another issue is the redeployment of conquering units from the country that just surrendered. In one game the AH empire surrendered and the many American, British and French units within AH territory were magically transported back to their respective home countries. This is of course unrealistic. They should realistically remain in place and then redeployed via normal movement rules (strategic, amphibious etc).

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/15/2008 6:06:30 AM

wargamer123

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I personally have not experienced war in Italy after Surrender, though I know it can happen but the Hex Control does not change for me when I move into the rewriten border with CP troops. On Top of this any French or British controlled Hexes in rewritten territory remain just as such... Doubly annoying...

It's expensive to expend HQ points, you can use Cav in softer terrains which helps, but for Cities-Rough Terrain there is nothing but HQ activated Corps, this will hurt

CP is hurt most by all these issues as she is most choked for resources and relies on conquest... And since the ET is mainly on a route of Defense and Major Destruction it's easier for her to navigate these problems and exploit them to her benefit. I'd say if you know the mechanics of the game you'll get through with both sides taking hits, but it does take some learning to understand how things will end up, messed up generally in the aspect of surrender

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/15/2008 8:09:34 AM

SMK-at-work

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wargamer123

I personally have not experienced war in Italy after Surrender, though I know it can happen but the Hex Control does not change for me when I move into the rewriten border with CP troops. On Top of this any French or British controlled Hexes in rewritten territory remain just as such... Doubly annoying...

That's what happened in the game I refer to - and because one of those French/Brit hexes is Genoa and a line of hexes from it north, the allies could amphib troops there and strat move north so the war there kept going.

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/15/2008 10:05:02 AM

wargamer123

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SMK,

Going to have to Entrench a CP unit to defend from this possibility. I am going to from now on, this is a violation of Italian Neutrality. Should be a houseRule I guess to stop it

I tried the same thing with the CP to storm Southern France, didn't work though

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RE: Hex Control and Surrendering - 3/16/2008 3:52:09 PM

chris51

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From: England
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I agree, it's annoying to force a nation to surrender, see the new borders drawn and all that territory inside your borders that you newly aquired still be in opposition hands with you unable to deploy in or move into those areas. Playing a game as CP, I had forced Roumania to surrender yet had to expend HQ activation points to be able to advance towards Oddessa.

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Post #: 13