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Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 2:00:59 PM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		Playing Campaign 41B, Japanese AI. Time is Sept 42 and the Japs didn't take Borneo and Java till now.
It looks like the Jap Ai is a bit laggy.

Anyone suggesting a scenario with a good Jap AI?

< Message edited by Knaust -- 3/14/2008 2:18:55 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 2:21:13 PM   
Saso


Posts: 232
Joined: 3/7/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Ciao,

I have played only two short scenarios (more tutorial) against AI but I have noticed that it makes the same moves (more or less).
After the first time you'll know how it moves.

Said this, I don't believe you'll find a good opponent agaist AI (regardless of scenario), therefore I have resolved to play in PBEM.




_____________________________



(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 2:42:16 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		Only play the jap AI on very hard and don't try to hard to beat it......

I lost the SRA only once to the AI (my first AI game) and since then I have always managed to hold on to the most important SRA bases (Singapore, java and EVEN the philipines).

Once you send some medium bomber groups and plenty of supply to java you basicall won the game....

If you want to have fun, send 2 CV's worth of SBD's, TMF's and F4's to java. You can see the KB impale itself against them when it does it's 2 monthly cruise through the SRA....

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to Saso)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 2:56:20 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Only play the jap AI on very hard and don't try to hard to beat it......


Essentially Correct. The AI is a learning tool, but the game is too big and too detailed for it to really be much of a long-term opponant. If you think about it closely, you'll actually be amazed it can conduct a reasonably effective "Conquest of the Indies" considering the multiple forces and unit types it has to coordinate.

But once you master the mechanics of the game, beating on the AI is like beating up your little brother. Sometimes satisfying..., but not much of a challange. That's when you look for a PBEM opponant and start learning the game all over. With AE coming out this Summer, at least you will have a chance to start your PBEM on a more level playing field---as much will be new to everyone.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 5:21:24 PM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		I know...but it's amazing that the Jap AI didn't conquer Java and Borneo with all its oil resources (Sept 42)

< Message edited by Knaust -- 3/14/2008 5:23:35 PM >

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 5:30:51 PM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		I agree the coding of AI for a game this size would be difficult, but I still believe there is a lot of room for improvements without inhuman feats of computer science.

I think a lot people who play exclusively by email cringe at these threads since they don't want to see any resources put towards AI as doing so would curtail development in other parts of the game. I would probably have the same reaction if I was in the same but, unfortunately I don't play by email.


(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 6:54:16 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		The AI doesn't do a very good job of giving its invasion fleets air cover, so a decent sized air force can stop it cold. By the time it gets around to invading Java, it typically has lost so many transports that it has a hard time sustaining a full invasion. My last two games against the AI it has landed a susbtantial number of troops at Merak, only to leave them with little to no supply.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 7:49:24 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Only play the jap AI on very hard and don't try to hard to beat it......


This is good advice whichever AI you play against. The fact is that WitP is a game, and if play it AS a game then the AI doesn't have a prayer. But if you want to have fun, it's better to operate within the rough parameters of an historical simulation. In particular that means you should never utilize your role as "God" to knit forces together in clearly unhistorical ways (such as the aforementioned delivery of US carrier aircraft to the DEI). That doesn't mean you should restrict yourself to purely historical actions, but anything far outside of those should be seriously thought through.

Of course, the REAL question to every AI-game player is, "am I having fun"? So if you get your jollies from annihilating the AI, then go right ahead. But if "fun" means "facing a challenge", then you MUST operate with handicaps of some sort.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese AI - 3/14/2008 8:20:25 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Lots of alcohol, so as to dumb yourself down to the AI's level.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 3:52:55 AM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knaust

Playing Campaign 41B, Japanese AI. Time is Sept 42 and the Japs didn't take Borneo and Java till now.
It looks like the Jap Ai is a bit laggy.

Anyone suggesting a scenario with a good Jap AI?

I have been told that if you play the allies in the long game against the computer and attack as they did in the real war and in the same basic time frame the computer will play a good game against you because its the unusual lind of human moves the the AI does not deal with that give it problems.

Madgamer

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 4:02:39 AM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Only play the jap AI on very hard and don't try to hard to beat it......


Essentially Correct. The AI is a learning tool, but the game is too big and too detailed for it to really be much of a long-term opponant. If you think about it closely, you'll actually be amazed it can conduct a reasonably effective "Conquest of the Indies" considering the multiple forces and unit types it has to coordinate.

But once you master the mechanics of the game, beating on the AI is like beating up your little brother. Sometimes satisfying..., but not much of a challange. That's when you look for a PBEM opponant and start learning the game all over. With AE coming out this Summer, at least you will have a chance to start your PBEM on a more level playing field---as much will be new to everyone.

I must be the biggest retard going. I bought the game a few days after it was released and have played it off and on from then till today and have not made it past the first year. The game I am playing now it the best I have managed so far. I can't even understand how one keeps the PI or gets planes to Java or holds Singapore .....so few brain cells so little time. When AE hits the PC I will have to start all over again and I am not sure if I am up to it as just playing the computer Jap AI is at my brain level and I think AE will be deaper with more things to do that I do not understand but try to do them anyway......well I am retired and have lots of time....

Madgamer

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 5:12:10 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer
I must be the biggest retard going. I bought the game a few days after it was released and have played it off and on from then till today and have not made it past the first year. The game I am playing now it the best I have managed so far. I can't even understand how one keeps the PI or gets planes to Java or holds Singapore .....so few brain cells so little time. When AE hits the PC I will have to start all over again and I am not sure if I am up to it as just playing the computer Jap AI is at my brain level and I think AE will be deaper with more things to do that I do not understand but try to do them anyway......well I am retired and have lots of time....

Madgamer


You may just be listening to the wrong examples. You don't need to hold the PI or Singapore to beat the AI (though if you take advantage of the AI's foibles it's certainly possible). Actually the real weakness of the AI shows up AFTER it conquers the SRA---it simply has great difficulty trying to decide what to do next. I think you've been expecting too much and not playing long enough to give yourself a chance to go on the offensive. Next time you start, commit yourself to playing until at least 1/44 and plan accordingly. You'll have a better time.

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 5:48:44 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		In my campaign the AI has abandoned nearly all its outer possessions, other than a few atolls that I am easily bypassing.  I just retook Kiriwina and Vella Lavella in early 1943, and the AI has done little in response.  It's still sending supply convoys within range of my PT's at Munda, who are having lots of fun torpedoing AK's and AP's at night...

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 8:10:00 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear

Lots of alcohol, so as to dumb yourself down to the AI's level.


And since that often qualifies as "fun", then you've effectively killed two birds with one stone! Sadly, the amount of alcohol required to downgrade the human brain to AI level has an unfortunate side effect. Death.

(in reply to panda124c)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 10:40:40 AM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		But it's just the very historic Allied strategy that I play

I didn't reinforce Java, Sumatra and Borneo, so the Jap AI can take SRA very easily.

The Jap AI sent 4 divs with heavy support for a total of 18 units against Mandalay, But I succeeded in stopping them there.

In the meanwhile I took the Shortlands with 2 US Para Bns

< Message edited by Knaust -- 3/15/2008 10:44:35 AM >

(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 12:47:46 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Of course, the REAL question to every AI-game player is, "am I having fun"? So if you get your jollies from annihilating the AI, then go right ahead. But if "fun" means "facing a challenge", then you MUST operate with handicaps of some sort.



I'd go a bit farther here. "If having FUN means facing a CHALLANGE", then you are ready for PBEM. Unless you get a kick out of playing with "half your Fleet tied behind your back" restrictions on yourself, even a "dull" human brain can "outthink" a collection of "if/then" statements run by a machine.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 5:26:40 PM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull
Of course, the REAL question to every AI-game player is, "am I having fun"? So if you get your jollies from annihilating the AI, then go right ahead. But if "fun" means "facing a challenge", then you MUST operate with handicaps of some sort.



I'd go a bit farther here. "If having FUN means facing a CHALLANGE", then you are ready for PBEM. Unless you get a kick out of playing with "half your Fleet tied behind your back" restrictions on yourself, even a "dull" human brain can "outthink" a collection of "if/then" statements run by a machine.


sure...but why in this collection of "if/then" is the simple statement "the Jap AI takes SRA in the first months of campaign" absolutely lacking?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 6:24:53 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		"IF Batavia is allied base, AND Japanese control Palembacng, then troops are to be routed to Merak." Of course, it doesn't think: "IF allied bombers are destroying shipping headed to/at Merak then heavy air cover will be provided to convoys headed to Merak"

The AI does try to capture the SRA, it just doesn't understand how to go about doing it in the face of heavy opposition.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese AI - 3/15/2008 9:34:07 PM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		What is heavy opposition?...In Batavia and Soerabaja Allied troops are only those there at the start of campaign

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 19
RE: Japanese AI - 3/16/2008 3:54:01 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Huddle up all those ABDA forces at Soerbaja(sp) and after they fill out their TOEs and you add a marine division you can kick some tail.
Of course this is all easy against the AI.
I play against the AI for training, practicing amphib attacks and building up key bases. All of this is in preparation for my first pbem.
Do I have to admit it's been almost 4 years of practice now?

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


Banner By Feurer Krieg

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese AI - 3/16/2008 10:59:10 AM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		OK...I know...what about trying a pbem kick between us?

Scenario 16 Campaign 41B me as Allied...other settings at your choice

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese AI - 3/16/2008 7:58:51 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		In my case, I defend Java with the Dutch troops and allied air units. Both the air units from Malaya and the Philippines operated out of DEI bases IRL, so I will use them to help defend the DEI against enemy invasion. I have also sent one or two of the Australian "bird" forces or independant companies to Koepang, though I believe that they really haven't made any difference.

It's the AI's inability to recognize when its transport TFs need air cover that has been its downfall in my games. My aircraft have sunk hundreds of enemy transports on the approaches to the DEI due to this even though I do my best to handicap my defence by not taking replacements unless I can get a new supply TF into the area.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese AI - 3/17/2008 3:51:30 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

OK...I know...what about trying a pbem kick between us?

Scenario 16 Campaign 41B me as Allied...other settings at your choice


hmmm a nice offer but I don't have much experience playing the Japs and I still need more practice...

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


Banner By Feurer Krieg

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese AI - 3/17/2008 10:38:14 AM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline 		geezzzz...me too as Allies...more practice?...4 years more?...hurry up...I'm 68 and I think maybe I have no more time to end the campaign

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 24
RE: Japanese AI - 3/17/2008 2:23:40 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		Knaust. You and Gem35 are letting your egos get in the way. Neither of you feels competant to play the Allies or the Japanese..., which means you are thinking about "winning". Forget "winning" and just enjoy playing. Sure you will both botch things up from time to time---so what? You will learn more, and have your opponant to share your tales of "screwing up" with. Flip a coin to see who will play the Jap, start with "suprise" and "historical" on (that will give most of the Japanese players units immediate goals) and go to it. Nobody says you have to finish the game.., if it get's too far out of hand just change sides and start over.

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 25
RE: Japanese AI - 3/17/2008 4:38:27 PM   
Knaust

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 3/5/2001
From: Rivoli ITALY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Knaust. You and Gem35 are letting your egos get in the way. Neither of you feels competant to play the Allies or the Japanese..., which means you are thinking about "winning". Forget "winning" and just enjoy playing. Sure you will both botch things up from time to time---so what? You will learn more, and have your opponant to share your tales of "screwing up" with. Flip a coin to see who will play the Jap, start with "suprise" and "historical" on (that will give most of the Japanese players units immediate goals) and go to it. Nobody says you have to finish the game.., if it get's too far out of hand just change sides and start over.


well...I want to play Allies because I don't want headache about Jap production...

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 26
RE: Japanese AI - 3/17/2008 7:00:59 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knaust
well...I want to play Allies because I don't want headache about Jap production...



Let it run itself. You are learning, not compeating for the "Grand Nationals". So it isn't "tweeked" to the max. You guys will probably screw up so much in the first 3-6 months that you will want to re-start anyway. Just play and have fun! You'll learn more.., and you'll have someone to talk about "what happened?" with. Leave your egos on the counter and get out there and screw up!

(in reply to Knaust)
Post #: 27
RE: Japanese AI - 3/18/2008 2:32:37 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		haha, thanks for the words of encouragement Mike. I wouldn't call it ego, more or less cowardice on my part.
Another excuse(reason) is my work schedule does not allow me to play more than a turn or two a day, especially on weekends where most folks have time.
I would love to play against a fellow Italian( born and raised in US but G-parents from Sicily) but I am afraid for now it just wouldn't be a good idea.


_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


Banner By Feurer Krieg

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese AI - 3/18/2008 2:48:59 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Actually the real weakness of the AI shows up AFTER it conquers the SRA---it simply has great difficulty trying to decide what to do next.



Kind of like the Japanese IRL...

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 29
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