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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> SMS Kormoran found... Page: [1]
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SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 11:52:17 AM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline 		Interesting read. Australia has been searching for HMAS Sydney and stumbled across her attacker.

Here's the link: German warship found

Chez

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 12:06:55 PM   
patrickl


Posts: 1530
Joined: 6/20/2002
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		Thanks for the link. Cool

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 1:43:11 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Hate to pick nits, but it can't be SMS...

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 2:46:40 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Love the new sig Terminus

< Message edited by cantona2 -- 3/16/2008 2:47:01 PM >

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 3:32:54 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		I was sceptical at first, given previous false alarms about Kormoran being found. However, this looks like the real deal.

Here's a link to Finding Sydney Foundation's report on this development, with more detail/sonar images.

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 4:58:43 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Love stupid media articles about warships.  Sydney was a "battle cruiser"?  Must have been the smallest one ever built then.  And the last line was funny too; they don't know if there would be plans to raise her if she is found.  Well duh, Sydney's been underwater for over 65 years, I'd think she'd be in no condition to raise even in big pieces...

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Post #: 6
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 6:16:02 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Interesting News, thanks for posting. The HSKs are fascinating naval history. Re the media article: "The 9,500-ton Kormoran had been disguised as a Dutch merchant ship when it opened fire on the Sydney." Well, it was disguised, but the German Auxiliary Cruisers always dropped camouflage and hoisted the naval ensign before opening fire. A detail often omitted in media articles and other propaganda...    


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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 6:29:29 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Interesting News, thanks for posting. The HSKs are fascinating naval history. Re the media article: "The 9,500-ton Kormoran had been disguised as a Dutch merchant ship when it opened fire on the Sydney." Well, it was disguised, but the German Auxiliary Cruisers always dropped camouflage and hoisted the naval ensign before opening fire. A detail often omitted in media articles and other propaganda...    



They have to really. If I'm not mistaken, the crew could all be executed as spies if they didn't raise their proper battle colors before attack, correct?

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 6:37:21 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Not as spies, but as pirates.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 3/16/2008 6:39:07 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 8:12:57 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Here's the link to the article in the Sydney Morning Herald on the find.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/kormorans-ocean-grave-found/2008/03/16/1205602195054.html


I'm now going to read the link that Local Yokel provided...

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Post #: 10
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 11:06:06 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		What I found particularly intriguing was a piece of debris observed at what the search team assess to be the scene of the engagement between Sydney and Kormoran:

"While most of the wreckage found at the battle site is smaller, this piece is very large and indicates the severe damage suffered by Sydney. The larger piece in this high-resolution sonar image measures 33 metres by 19 metres with a height of 13.3 metres off the seabed as evidenced by its very long acoustic shadow. The smaller wreckage at the bottom of the screen with its own acoustic shadow measures 11 metres by 11 metres and 5 metres high by comparison."

That's about 100 feet by 60 feet by 40 feet in English units. That is a huge chunk of ship. I believe Sydney was described by German survivor as having been struck by one of Kormoran's torpedoes - could that have been the cause of a piece of debris that large having become detached?

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Post #: 11
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/16/2008 11:19:07 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

What I found particularly intriguing was a piece of debris observed at what the search team assess to be the scene of the engagement between Sydney and Kormoran:

"While most of the wreckage found at the battle site is smaller, this piece is very large and indicates the severe damage suffered by Sydney. The larger piece in this high-resolution sonar image measures 33 metres by 19 metres with a height of 13.3 metres off the seabed as evidenced by its very long acoustic shadow. The smaller wreckage at the bottom of the screen with its own acoustic shadow measures 11 metres by 11 metres and 5 metres high by comparison."

That's about 100 feet by 60 feet by 40 feet in English units. That is a huge chunk of ship. I believe Sydney was described by German survivor as having been struck by one of Kormoran's torpedoes - could that have been the cause of a piece of debris that large having become detached?



OR perhaps it's a japanese submarine?!? dundunduunnn

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Post #: 12
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 1:11:57 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Didn't take them long. Discovery of HMAS Sydney was just announced today:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hmas-sydney-found/2008/03/17/1205602231326.html

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Post #: 13
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 4:46:30 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		This is pretty cool.

I think that the press shouldn't be allowed to write articles regarding military stuff such as the 'battlecruiser' Sydney!  Let the professional search people write the articles and the press can then print it! 

Reading this stuff makes me think of Robert Ballard.  Does anyone know what he is up to right now?  After finding the Yorktown I haven't heard much...

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/17/2008 4:47:37 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 6:22:18 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Yes, that was a fast follow-up. Out of curiosity - which WW2 warship shipwrecks remain to be found?

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Post #: 15
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 6:34:25 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Yes, that was a fast follow-up. Out of curiosity - which WW2 warship shipwrecks remain to be found?

Most of them... only a relatively few high-profile cases have been found, and those in shallow water, iirc... for instance, i think only a fragment of one IJN CV sunk outside a port/harbor has been found (iirc).

Certainly hundreds and hundreds of U-boats and other subs haven't been found (several dozen in shallower water have been)...

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Post #: 16
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 7:02:14 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Of course. I should have added "capital ships". I tried to google for a list of ships. There is a Wikipedia entry but it is incomplete (no Yorktown for example), and the other list I have seen are either broader or narrower in time range / ship type etc., or must be purchased...   

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Post #: 17
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 7:08:00 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline 		The story of the Kormoran is really an amazing story.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/kormoran.html

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 10:01:49 PM   
WhoCares


Posts: 653
Joined: 7/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Of course. I should have added "capital ships". I tried to google for a list of ships. There is a Wikipedia entry but it is incomplete (no Yorktown for example), and the other list I have seen are either broader or narrower in time range / ship type etc., or must be purchased...   

Ask and thou shall receive: Shipwreck Central

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Post #: 19
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 11:05:37 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		"Well duh, Sydney's been underwater for over 65 years, I'd think she'd be in no condition to raise even in big pieces..."

Not that I'm advocating the raising of HMAS Sydney, but the USS Monitor was underwater for substantially longer than that and they are doing a creditable job of salvaging her...

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 11:14:42 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Nah, Monitor's off my current state and the only significant piece they're trying to raise is the turret.  The rest of the hull is so decomposed there's little left to raise, and even the turret is seriously rusted in places.  They brought up the anchor, the bell and IIRC the guns some time ago, but the hull is in really bad shape.

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Post #: 21
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/17/2008 11:24:34 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I knew that they had raised the turret and the engine, but did not realize that they had declined to raise the rest. At least they are doing the right thing and are restoring it at the Mariner's Museum in Virginia and not leaving it to the Tarheel State...

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Post #: 22
RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 12:23:55 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I would note that CNN is carrying a scroll along the bottom of their screen saying that the 'battlecruiser HMAS Sydney' has been found...

What are the thoughts regarding salvage of a wreck?  I had real issue with the people who brought up pieces of Titanic.  To me these sites are nothing but large cemetaries...I think of the sea of boots above Bismarck's wreck. 

Monitor is a tough call.  It is the same sort of thing to me...


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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 12:57:55 AM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Personal feelings: Salvage away. They can't get any deader.

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 1:08:52 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Would people say that of Arizona?


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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 2:37:24 AM   
bbbf

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		They are 3000+ metres down, and should be in reasonably good condition (for battle wrecks) because of that.

As they are 3000+ meters down, I don't think anybody could raise either of them anyway -except for the super secret Howard Hughes/CIA Soviet sub raising/undersea mining ship - and I don't know if she exists anymore either.

As to whether they should salvage anything - I think one significant piece from each should be brought up and that is it.

They will be classified as wargraves now anyway and as such, proteced under law.



< Message edited by bbbf -- 3/18/2008 2:39:25 AM >

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 3:50:22 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Well said Sir.  I believe that Dr. Ballard was instrumental in getting that legislation enacted.  He is quite passionate on the subject.


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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 9:29:49 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

The story of the Kormoran is really an amazing story.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/kormoran.html


Indeed it is! Fifty hits from 150mm guns at a range of 1000 meters? What a nightmare that must have been.

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 6:20:34 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Deleted for clarity.

< Message edited by anarchyintheuk -- 3/18/2008 6:46:23 PM >

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RE: SMS Kormoran found... - 3/18/2008 6:44:46 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Would people say that of Arizona?



I can't speak for other people. I would have no problem with it.

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Post #: 30
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