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Wondering about the Database - 3/21/2008 1:55:17 PM   
Bigfish

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 7/17/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline 		Hi there,

i have a question about the database:

- In early Battlesets (e.g. origin GUIK) the Range of the AIM-54C Phoenix is about to 110 Miles.
- In later Battlesets (e.g. EC2003, WestPac) the Range of the AIM-54C Phoenix is now about 60 Miles.

Why is this different?


- Also the effectivnes in later (newer) Battlesets is lower for the AIM-54C Phoenix.

OK this coult be a tribute to the timeline. Possible in 1980s this missile is better against aircrafts of this timeperiod than against 2008 aircrafts?


So there is a wish about the database: The database should have different entries for timeperiods. Also when you design a new scenario you should be able to set the time it plays. Building special databases for such things is horrorfying.

regards
Bigfish
Post #: 1
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/21/2008 3:17:44 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		The Phoenix missiles were severely overrated in the old days. They were not as good as claimed.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Bigfish)
Post #: 2
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/21/2008 4:18:45 PM   
eclipsetr

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline 		Also as far as accuracy they were ment to shot down big fat russian bombers before they could launch their cruise missiles. The acc was probably dropped to show this. They still work just fine againt bombers its the smaller faster stuff they now have a little problem with. Thats why tom cruise had to go visual and dog fight the russians he knew not to waste the million dollar missiles, he was just gonna miss anyways... and besides the mig-28's were only carrying exoset missiles anyways... god im getting old to still remember that

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/21/2008 5:29:32 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Basically what has already been stated.  The earlier versions of the game over-rated several of the weapons systems capabilities while under-rating others.  Those older databases are not over-written by the current DB, so the old information is still present in the older battlesets.

So you will notice that the AIM-54 Pheonix will have a much larger range in the older databases, while the new database (which is editable by the players) will have a much more accurate representation of the weapons capabilities.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to eclipsetr)
Post #: 4
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/21/2008 8:50:45 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigfish
Hi there,
i have a question about the database:
- In early Battlesets (e.g. origin GUIK) the Range of the AIM-54C Phoenix is about to 110 Miles.
- In later Battlesets (e.g. EC2003, WestPac) the Range of the AIM-54C Phoenix is now about 60 Miles.
Why is this different?


Keep in mind firstly that the database used for the EC2003 and Westpac battlesets is the only one capable of being edited and is wholly different than that used in the earlier battlesets.

The 110 nm range for the Phoenix was the maximum lofted (ballistic) range for the missile against non-maneuvering targets (i.e. Soviet Naval Aviation bombers). The HCDB (the database used in EC2003 and Westpac) adopts, wherever feasible, the data from the Harpoon 4.1/High Tide paper rules. Its 60 nm figure is a more reasonable engagement range for the Phoenix; hence its use in the HCDB.

quote:


- Also the effectivnes in later (newer) Battlesets is lower for the AIM-54C Phoenix.
OK this coult be a tribute to the timeline. Possible in 1980s this missile is better against aircrafts of this timeperiod than against 2008 aircrafts?


Again, just a matter of the HCDB adopting the H4.1/HT data.

quote:

So there is a wish about the database: The database should have different entries for timeperiods. Also when you design a new scenario you should be able to set the time it plays. Building special databases for such things is horrorfying.


Not likely to happen. Until the current file structure is changed, space in the HCE database is rather limited, about 2,000 entries per annex (i.e. 2,000 aircraft types; 2,000 ship types; etc). The limitation extends to characters for names. Not that I am a big fan of terribly long names for platforms, anyway.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Bigfish)
Post #: 5
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/21/2008 10:01:09 PM   
Bigfish

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 7/17/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

The 110 nm range for the Phoenix was the maximum lofted (ballistic) range for the missile against non-maneuvering targets (i.e. Soviet Naval Aviation bombers). The HCDB (the database used in EC2003 and Westpac) adopts, wherever feasible, the data from the Harpoon 4.1/High Tide paper rules. Its 60 nm figure is a more reasonable engagement range for the Phoenix; hence its use in the HCDB.


Is this fact attended to all weapons old vs. new databases? I think such facts should be solved "ingame" by AI. If the AIM-54C could destroy slow flying bombers at a range of ~100 miles this should be possible - now it is impossible with the new database! This is design philosophy ok but where is the value "60 nm" from?

Also editing the database is realy sad - why it is'nt possible to edit the database tables directly? Possible i'am blind but is there a chance to search within the forms? Editing the tables should be quit easier beacause you have a better overview doing this.

Sorry i was hopefull the older battlesets empowerd with the new features of the new game. Possible i'am a little frustrated about HCE because this is not done! So i have to wait for an completely new designed Harpoon with the best of HCE and H3 and some more improvements in gameplay especialy in large and very large scenarios and GUI(!).

Currently HCE looks like a game under devlepoment because the battlesets are not harmonized - don't know how long somebody need to "refresh" the old battlesets and why it is not possible to simply "upgrade" them - but i think these old scenarios are the best ones! It would be great to upgrade them... - if it is possible for me to do anything to do so let me know.

regards
Bigfish





< Message edited by Bigfish -- 3/21/2008 10:03:58 PM >

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 6
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 12:13:29 AM   
Warhorse64

 

Posts: 154
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

The 110 nm range for the Phoenix was the maximum lofted (ballistic) range for the missile against non-maneuvering targets (i.e. Soviet Naval Aviation bombers). The HCDB (the database used in EC2003 and Westpac) adopts, wherever feasible, the data from the Harpoon 4.1/High Tide paper rules. Its 60 nm figure is a more reasonable engagement range for the Phoenix; hence its use in the HCDB.



Actually, it's even worse than that. :-) The hundred-plus mile range story comes from a single trial shot where absolutely everything was 'best-cased'. The target was a supersonic drone with its radar return electronically enhanced to the size of a Backfire bomber. It was heading directly towards the F-14 at high altitude and supersonic speed, and the F-14 was heading directly towards the target at high altitude and supersonic speed. There was a Hawkeye in the vicinity which was feeding continuous updates to the F-14 about the target. The F-14's onboard radar acquired the target at about 130 miles range, and the Phoenix missile was launched at about 100 miles range. However, the target continued to close without maneuvering as the missile approached, with the result that the missile only actually flew a distance of about sixty nautical miles to make the intercept. Hence the 60 nm range in the game. Now admittedly, you tend to lose some of that range in the game because you can't launch until the target is within 60 nm of the launch platform, but that's a game-mechanics decision with no right answer --- if they let you launch from (say) 100 nm range, they'd be buried in complaints about missiles falling short all the time, instead. :-)

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 7
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 1:27:09 AM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigfish
Is this fact attended to all weapons old vs. new databases? I think such facts should be solved "ingame" by AI. If the AIM-54C could destroy slow flying bombers at a range of ~100 miles this should be possible - now it is impossible with the new database! This is design philosophy ok but where is the value "60 nm" from?


As I stated earlier, the 60 nm figure comes from H4.1/HT data. If you're not happy with the more realistic figure, you have two choices: (1) stick to the old battlesets and scenarios; or (2) edit the database.

quote:

Also editing the database is realy sad - why it is'nt possible to edit the database tables directly? Possible i'am blind but is there a chance to search within the forms? Editing the tables should be quit easier beacause you have a better overview doing this.


Use the Platform Editor (PE) to edit the database.

quote:

Sorry i was hopefull the older battlesets empowerd with the new features of the new game. Possible i'am a little frustrated about HCE because this is not done! So i have to wait for an completely new designed Harpoon with the best of HCE and H3 and some more improvements in gameplay especialy in large and very large scenarios and GUI(!).


I've yet to meet a version of Harpoon that was all things to all people, but I expect you're probably somewhat confused as to what was supposed to have been accomplished with HCE. Reworking old battlesets and scenarios that have been around since the early 1990s was not particularly high on the list. Fixing bugs, adding a host of completely new features, venturing into new parts of the world map, etc, were.

quote:

Currently HCE looks like a game under devlepoment because the battlesets are not harmonized - don't know how long somebody need to "refresh" the old battlesets and why it is not possible to simply "upgrade" them - but i think these old scenarios are the best ones! It would be great to upgrade them... - if it is possible for me to do anything to do so let me know.


You can always attempt to 'remake' the old battleset scenarios (and some of them are very old indeed) with your own database.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Bigfish)
Post #: 8
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 1:30:51 AM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64
Actually, it's even worse than that. :-) The hundred-plus mile range story comes from a single trial shot where absolutely everything was 'best-cased'. The target was a supersonic drone with its radar return electronically enhanced to the size of a Backfire bomber. It was heading directly towards the F-14 at high altitude and supersonic speed, and the F-14 was heading directly towards the target at high altitude and supersonic speed. There was a Hawkeye in the vicinity which was feeding continuous updates to the F-14 about the target. The F-14's onboard radar acquired the target at about 130 miles range, and the Phoenix missile was launched at about 100 miles range. However, the target continued to close without maneuvering as the missile approached, with the result that the missile only actually flew a distance of about sixty nautical miles to make the intercept. Hence the 60 nm range in the game.


Yeah, all fairly well known if you do the digging. I wasn't feeling particularly long winded.

quote:

Now admittedly, you tend to lose some of that range in the game because you can't launch until the target is within 60 nm of the launch platform, but that's a game-mechanics decision with no right answer --- if they let you launch from (say) 100 nm range, they'd be buried in complaints about missiles falling short all the time, instead. :-)


Right, the code doesn't allow for the increased kinematic range when shooting a missile while flying at supersonic speed (or conversely, reduced range at low speed). And, yes, as you say, you can't please everyone.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Warhorse64)
Post #: 9
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 3:54:23 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline 		I am a full fledged member of the compromise party, 75nm Phoenix .  Though sometimes I bump it up to 85nm for fun. 



_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 10
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 3:58:27 AM   
TonyE


Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bigfish
Also editing the database is realy sad - why it is'nt possible to edit the database tables directly? Possible i'am blind but is there a chance to search within the forms? Editing the tables should be quit easier beacause you have a better overview doing this.

Sorry i was hopefull the older battlesets empowerd with the new features of the new game. Possible i'am a little frustrated about HCE because this is not done! So i have to wait for an completely new designed Harpoon with the best of HCE and H3 and some more improvements in gameplay especialy in large and very large scenarios and GUI(!).


In the PE you can edit the tables directly. You can also search within the forms, I often click in the class name field, go to edit, find, type in F-14 or whatever I want to find, set it to any part, then search.

I'll rant about Harpoon tomorrow perhaps, today's version, come help, we need more participation. More than once I've been tempted to dump all backwards compatibility with pre-EC2003 battlesets so some would consider it a blessing and a miracle that they are present at all.



_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Bigfish)
Post #: 11
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 1:49:42 PM   
Bigfish

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 7/17/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

As I stated earlier, the 60 nm figure comes from H4.1/HT data. If you're not happy with the more realistic figure, you have two choices: (1) stick to the old battlesets and scenarios; or (2) edit the database.


Please don't misunderstood me - i've no problem with 60nm, i've a problem that their are two different values in the same game without a reason! Also i wanted to know why it was changed - and now i know it


quote:

Use the Platform Editor (PE) to edit the database.


That's clear - and ouch i'am blind - now i see the search field. Also there are the table's. Don't know what was wrong yesterday - but on my first try many icons like search and changing to tables were not present. Now its fine


(in reply to CV32)
Post #: 12
RE: Wondering about the Database - 3/22/2008 2:33:16 PM   
CV32


Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline 		No problem, Bigfish. I'm glad you can see there is a method to the madness. Good hunting with those Phoenixes.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Bigfish)
Post #: 13
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