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Bring Silvanski here... - 3/4/2008 10:04:25 AM

Monkeys Brain

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There is shooting squad waiting in the lobby for him

I am joking of course... Well, I appreciate his efforts for working on Pieros 1947 scenario but I found some things rather strange:

Well, for example Serbain forces has usashis in their names, or something like Hvratsko which is pure nonsense. Those are Croatian names and even at that it is bad spelled. Then it is not Skandenberg but Skenderbeg. It is not Udarni but Udarna.
And Serbian had chetnicks not ustashi.
Or Pogl. Tjel... in Serbian forces. Maybe that is from Pavelic - poglavnikov tjelesni zdrug lol

Those typos should be changed... I can help you with that.

Anyway big scenario and I don't know how it play - maybe I will play it sometime...

Mario

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/4/2008 10:19:43 AM

Silvanski

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Here I am

I corrected some names, ... 'Skanderbeg' was what I found in most literature
What the "Serbien" formation concerns, these are indeed Croatian units. Collaborating with Nazi-Germany they are the occupying troops in Serbia.
I gladly will implement corrections in the spelling.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/4/2008 10:41:20 AM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Here I am

I corrected some names, ... 'Skanderbeg' was what I found in most literature
What the "Serbien" formation concerns, these are indeed Croatian units. Collaborating with Nazi-Germany they are the occupying troops in Serbia.
I gladly will implement corrections in the spelling.

Heh

Alright as this is already fictional scenario - OK then we can assume that somehow Croatians were occupying Serbia

No need for extra formation but I have already read that Serbia is in play so I don't know if capture of Belgrade and Zagreb moves out of play part of the forces...

But it is not so important...

If you want to use Serbian names than Daniel Mc Bride's scenario could be useful (TGW 2.0). There you have WW1 Serbian divisions (Dunav, Timok, Morava) mostly on rivers).

But if you want to remain on Croatian then you can use 17. Hrvatska Div instead of 17. Hvratsko Div.

also 1. Hvratsko Kps. should be 1. Hrvatski Kps.

see corps is I at the end, and for division is A at the end. declination.

Srpska Drza Str ... should be named Srpska Drzav. St. you know name ends better there.

Domo Bde. should be Domobran Bde. - or Domobr. Bde.

Croatian names are OK.

But I still doubt that Croatian could have so much division even in 1947. and that Serbian HQ should have Croatian names...

Anyway I notice that now scenario is much pro allied, how is playtesting going, does axis have some chance?

Mario

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/4/2008 10:49:57 AM

Silvanski

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The formation name "Serbien" is purely geographical... there are others like "Belgian" "Frankreich" etc...

Hrvatska, Hrvatsko ... OK got it

I'm currently playing it as Axis and it is possible to hold out... for the moment.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/4/2008 11:11:46 AM

Silvanski

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...to add, yes there are events in place to trigger the surrender of the Croatian formations...

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/4/2008 7:34:48 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

The formation name "Serbien" is purely geographical... there are others like "Belgian" "Frankreich" etc...

Hrvatska, Hrvatsko ... OK got it

I'm currently playing it as Axis and it is possible to hold out... for the moment.

ok thanks

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/5/2008 3:04:51 AM

desert

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I see two possible strategies - slowly chip away at the extremeties of the Reich, or storm the minor Axis capitals as quickly as possible.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/5/2008 9:44:48 AM

Silvanski

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I looked at it again and decided to change the names of the formation in Serbia...
This and name corrections will be in v2.1 to be released shortly via the Gamesquad downloads page

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/5/2008 12:27:11 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

I looked at it again and decided to change the names of the formation in Serbia...
This and name corrections will be in v2.1 to be released shortly via the Gamesquad downloads page

Great...
What exactly you have done to Piero's design?

What core things you have changed? Did you helped Allies a bit?

Lot's of Axis units are frozen, are you sure that this doesn't suit well to their flexibility to respond?

< Message edited by Monkeys Brain -- 3/5/2008 12:28:31 PM >

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/5/2008 12:29:05 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

I see two possible strategies - slowly chip away at the extremeties of the Reich, or storm the minor Axis capitals as quickly as possible.

I see. Taking caitals then should be much harder.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/5/2008 4:48:05 PM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys BrainWhat exactly you have done to Piero's design?

What core things you have changed? Did you helped Allies a bit?

Lot's of Axis units are frozen, are you sure that this doesn't suit well to their flexibility to respond?

Some changes and the fix for the ghost unit bug were discussed here.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1634360

The eqp editor was used to have Axis jets (Piero had to use Migs, I renamed those)

I didn't wanna use shock effects , the inability of Axis frontline units to move on turn 1 replaces that.

There are three Axis (panzer) formations which can be moved on turn 1.
Others become mobile gradually.

Reconstitution is set fixed, this avoids seeing Soviets reconstituting in the West and vice versa.
Suez was a chokepoint for Allied reinforcement and reconstitution. Reinforcements have been spread out a bit

Minor tweaks to the PO, Allies may strike Spain better.

Other things are described in the notes...

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 3/5/2008 4:49:03 PM >

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/5/2008 6:15:27 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys BrainWhat exactly you have done to Piero's design?

What core things you have changed? Did you helped Allies a bit?

Lot's of Axis units are frozen, are you sure that this doesn't suit well to their flexibility to respond?

Some changes and the fix for the ghost unit bug were discussed here.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1634360

The eqp editor was used to have Axis jets (Piero had to use Migs, I renamed those)

I didn't wanna use shock effects , the inability of Axis frontline units to move on turn 1 replaces that.

There are three Axis (panzer) formations which can be moved on turn 1.
Others become mobile gradually.

Reconstitution is set fixed, this avoids seeing Soviets reconstituting in the West and vice versa.
Suez was a chokepoint for Allied reinforcement and reconstitution. Reinforcements have been spread out a bit

Minor tweaks to the PO, Allies may strike Spain better.

Other things are described in the notes...

Thanks... I am looking forward to play this sometime...

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/21/2008 3:35:54 PM

Karri

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Been playing the scenario for a few turns...and I gotta say the unit design is a bit horrible(from battalions to corps...not good). I say get rid of anything below brigade size, or then get rid of everything above division size. Also it's a bit hard to get hang of the scenario when the units are all over the map...I'd rather have some of the units arrive as reinforcements instead of each turn search for the dozens of stacks for activated units.

< Message edited by Karri -- 3/21/2008 3:36:16 PM >

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/21/2008 6:18:47 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Been playing the scenario for a few turns...and I gotta say the unit design is a bit horrible(from battalions to corps...not good). I say get rid of anything below brigade size, or then get rid of everything above division size. Also it's a bit hard to get hang of the scenario when the units are all over the map...I'd rather have some of the units arrive as reinforcements instead of each turn search for the dozens of stacks for activated units.

I am also quite puzzled by design.

I know that initial COW version of Piero - had much stronger Axis dunno it should be compared, and Allied lacked much supply points so their invasion was easier to contain, I think....

What I really don't like in Axis OOB was this fantastic scenario where Allies gathered immense units and what Germans has done in the meantime LOL? Borders are so weakly defended. Russians managed to build forces of 15000 T-34 in Siberia? lol

Flexibility of scenario is also very limited with so many frozen units.
I don't know if interdiction hit release it from frozen status but for example, Norway is also very lightly defended.
Then you have this rigidity that naval forces is frozen. So war has started and naval forces cannot react and many others.

Still I think that scenario has fantastic potential.
Then, invasions... You put a division on a boat and just overrun unit in Sicily or South France. French forces and Italy's are FROZEN so they will react only NEXT turn. I would like to play Axis after I finish Blau, it is very tempting but just don't know do Axis has any chance at all.

But TO&E is great with lot's of exotic weapons. But here's as well we have some stupidity - it's 1947. and many countries in Axis OOB have weapons that belong to museum. OK, we can argue that FT17 was also used in WW2 and it belongs to WW1 but there are some strange things - for example there is 957 of PANZER IIIN that have Anti Armour rating of 4....

Do you think that Hitler would be so stupid to keep those tanks in 1947. even for his allies? I would understand if those were PIVH or PIIIL with better gun... but IIIN? C'mon.

Then, Italians have that obsolete M13/41 LOL and 1588 of these! lol

It was obsolete even in 1941. when Rommel was fighting in North Africa and imagine in 1947. Real coffin on a wheel.

Stuka Ju 87 was also obsolete by 1947. but Germans somehow opted to keep no less than 2022 of them. Then there is plethora of other obsolete planes and other weapons. Axis French Air force as well has some things that they pulled out of museums, planes from 38', 39', 40'. Obsolete in 1947.

Obviously Hitler was sleeping in Berhtsgaden in 1946. But he have sold some modern equipment to his allies though, so Spain have some jets

But again some really strange design things here. Somehow this was desgned to allow Allies to invade just about every place there, everything seems so lightly defended.

edit: Karri's Finland is not in the Axis camp, well too bad but you have lined up Soviet divisions neatly packed and ready to invade Finland. lol
And Soviets unit have those monster CORPS with 1900 rifle squads, 710 SMG squads etc... and so many of them. How is that Soviet union got beaten and managed to build such forces and this doctrine? Germans have those tiny divisions and Red Bear is on the borders ready to invade with so many corps...

Mario

< Message edited by Monkeys Brain -- 3/21/2008 6:29:37 PM >

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/21/2008 6:56:25 PM

desert

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Well, what about a German SPG brigade killing 20000 men in an attack by 2 Soviet corps? Without all those men, you would have some tough decisions to make on where to attack.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/21/2008 7:04:36 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

Well, what about a German SPG brigade killing 20000 men in an attack by 2 Soviet corps? Without all those men, you would have some tough decisions to make on where to attack.

OK, if playbalance is good then ok. I was just curious is scenario just downhill for the Axis right from the start or it can be exciting...

There are also so many places that when they are captured by Allies, Axis lose replacement and supply while Allies get's supply and replacement...

This thing could be debatable and tricky, because you cannot imagine that Allies would gain right away boost in replacements and supply because Germans would destroy those facilities or they would be destroyed by combat.

Someone argued that Germans should have attacked Baku oilfields like they did with Grozny and that this would bring big damage to Soviets as 80% of oil production then was located around Baku.
But they mass bombed Stalingrad and Russians just fortified the ruins.

Mario

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 5:55:11 AM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
There are also so many places that when they are captured by Allies, Axis lose replacement and supply while Allies get's supply and replacement...

This thing could be debatable and tricky, because you cannot imagine that Allies would gain right away boost in replacements and supply because Germans would destroy those facilities or they would be destroyed by combat.

I'm already working on an update. v2.2 is only an intermediate update
About the supply and replacement related events....50% chance for increase of Allied supply or replacements and then only afer a considerable delay.

What the OOB and TOE are concerned. The Axis side will be beefed up slightly but I think it's not unrealistic that some units still have obsolete equipment as the best equipment tends to go to the better units. The war didn't last that long in this timeline, so it's not at all improbable that there's still older equipment around. I'm even adding more beutepanzers to boost some units
If someone wants a more realistic TOE, go ahead... This one's alternate history and I find it more realistic than some 'historic' scenarios

Balance will be taken care of
I'm trying withdrawal events for Allied units and partisans. More Allied units starting on the map will have to receive equipment , like is the case with the Wehrmacht's Volksgrenadier Reserves

Force supply stockpile, formation supply and unit characteristics are currently being re-examined and revisedt. The German army will start with more high proficienc veteran units. More formations will be available on turn 1 etc
But one word about having so many units... many players play FitE... do they mind?

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 6:32:16 AM

Silvanski

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Reminder that
---Piero based the OOB on Gotterdammerung 1945 and expanded on that, hence the weird OOB with understrength divisions etc
---My initial mod had a human Axis vs Allied PO in mind, hence so many frozen Axis formations... The Allied attack, although anticipated still comes as a surprise.
---Next turn is only half a week further aye

Changes to be looked into
... Soviet corps will be reduced in size�
... Allies initially less replacements, this then justifies using events to raise that
... Volkssturm stays, with slightly better proficiency

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 3/22/2008 6:33:43 AM >

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 7:41:38 AM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
1 - Russians managed to build forces of 15000 T-34 in Siberia? lol

2 - Stuka Ju 87 was also obsolete by 1947. but Germans somehow opted to keep no less than 2022 of them.

3 - And Soviets unit have those monster CORPS with 1900 rifle squads, 710 SMG squads etc... and so many of them. How is that Soviet union got beaten and managed to build such forces and this doctrine? Mario

Proposed fixes. Let me know what you think...

1 - Lower Soviet replacements (combined with #3)

2 - Use EQP editor to turn Ju-87 in slightly better "Luft'46" project Ju-187

3 - Randomize equipment in all Soviet units to 65% (or lower?) of the current amount

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 3/22/2008 7:43:49 AM >

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 8:17:19 AM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
Then there is plethora of other obsolete planes and other weapons. Axis French Air force as well has some things that they pulled out of museums, planes from 38', 39', 40'. Obsolete in 1947.

What may have happened in this alternate history timeline: mothballed equipment Mario.
After the Axis conquered Europe they didn't get rid of all older equipment but decided to keep it in storage.
With the threat of an invasion looming it came back in service.

Remember when WW1 ended many Allied armies scrapped so much equipment and scaled down their forces... The effects were in a way still felt on the eve of WW2 ...

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 9:10:17 AM

sPzAbt653

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Just thinking out load, hypothetically. I bet Krupp, Porsche and Henschel would have scapped all those PzIII's for use in making more V's and VI's.

Some of the old equipment versions that were still in good service might have been sold to Allies.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 11:48:01 AM

Karri

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Historically a lot of equipment stayed in service until 1960's

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 12:06:35 PM

Silvanski

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Not yet released, but this is wat I've done ... the list will grow

v3
-Balancing the scenario. The Allies had too big an advantage.
-Revision of all forces, formations and units characteristics (supply distribution, proficiency etc)
-Soviet unit equipment levels set at 65% of the values in previous versions.
-All Axis units start ready for orders and in defensive deployments.
-Many Axis reinforcements are handled by location trigger events.
-Replacement and supply increase events for Allies less likely to happen.

The Pz III and older Italian tanks will stop being produced 6-8 turns into the scenario

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 12:36:37 PM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Historically a lot of equipment stayed in service until 1960's

Was it the Swiss army that used Hetzers a long time after WW2

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 1:14:09 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
1 - Russians managed to build forces of 15000 T-34 in Siberia? lol

2 - Stuka Ju 87 was also obsolete by 1947. but Germans somehow opted to keep no less than 2022 of them.

3 - And Soviets unit have those monster CORPS with 1900 rifle squads, 710 SMG squads etc... and so many of them. How is that Soviet union got beaten and managed to build such forces and this doctrine? Mario

Proposed fixes. Let me know what you think...

1 - Lower Soviet replacements (combined with #3)

2 - Use EQP editor to turn Ju-87 in slightly better "Luft'46" project Ju-187

3 - Randomize equipment in all Soviet units to 65% (or lower?) of the current amount

Well, I didn't played scenario so don't know is it balanced but will play it in next version. So cannot comment on balance just of yet but I see that Germans have lower replacement rate then Allies (and it get's lower! compare that with FiTE Soviet rate) and they have whole Europe under their boot and few years of peace.
UK & US that I understand that they were strong but Soviet Union was beaten and then rebuilds it's army in just few years. I know that it is what if scenario but it is strange.
But I am sorry if I am sounding too critical I in fact value very much your work on this project.

2 & 3 i agree... Stuka have only good anti shipping value so use that plane or some other with good anti shipping value and not so crappy others.

Mario

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 1:36:14 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain
Then there is plethora of other obsolete planes and other weapons. Axis French Air force as well has some things that they pulled out of museums, planes from 38', 39', 40'. Obsolete in 1947.

What may have happened in this alternate history timeline: mothballed equipment Mario.
After the Axis conquered Europe they didn't get rid of all older equipment but decided to keep it in storage.
With the threat of an invasion looming it came back in service.

Remember when WW1 ended many Allied armies scrapped so much equipment and scaled down their forces... The effects were in a way still felt on the eve of WW2 ...

Well, we can check production rates and judge some things logically.

I would replace PIIIN with PIVH.
Panzer IVh is more versatile tank, comparable with T-34 (almost as good as T34/85 and sligthly better than T34/late). Some argued that Germans should have standardised their army and make more PIVh tanks which was good tank all around.

2. Arty for the Axis, is that enough?

3. V2, V4? Is that enough? We can assume that Axis produced a lot more V2 and V4. Let's assume that Axis have produced A-bomb so after fall of Paris, Axis get's Theatre Option to use A-bomb in retaliation.

4. maybe more Me109's late at least to the allies - in change for that crappy models if it is strangth too low for allies. if not ok.

5. beef up axis allies armour... I would dish out that M13/41 completely. If Italians doesn't have any good late war tank (???) then use PIVh.

6. Allies have F80 Shooting Star with excellent values (1947 plane) and Germans have Me1101 coming after 150 turns and it is weapon from 1945 (!!!) - check this so that late war game would be not strange with F86 roaming and Germans must have also something. OK that TA 183 looks good

Maybe I will think about something else.

Mario

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 2:03:02 PM

Monkeys Brain

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7. OK INFANTRY.... Now you have Allied replacement rate for Heavy Inf. Squads at 4000, SMG 2000, and AT Assault 1000.
Germans have Rifle - 1000, Heavy AT -1695, Assault AT 1395.

that was just three examples. Couple that with lowering of Axis repl. rate as they lose cities. So infantry should be also looked over.

Don't forget that we are talking about almost all Europe here against Allies. Turkey, Spain as well etc. Realistic?

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 2:07:00 PM

Monkeys Brain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Historically a lot of equipment stayed in service until 1960's

Was it the Swiss army that used Hetzers a long time after WW2

yes but hetzer is good and m1341 is lousy.

remember that late ww1 tanks were not so worse than early ww2 tanks. that's why ft17 is ok compared with early ww2 models.

but in 5 years tank technology have advanced at giant rate!

So keeping m1341 in italian army is really bad.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 2:09:40 PM

Karri

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A few suggestions regarding the unit design:
1. Remove the city garrisons. I see them as mostly useless, and they only seem to 'clutter' the map. Use the equipment 'freed' to bolster the atlantic wall or other fortified lines on the map...or not.
2. Remove ALL flak regiments from all formations, combine them to either flak brigades or flak divisions. Or alternatively spread the flak equipment among the other units. WHatever the case, there are way too many flak units around. And the worst thing is that they are not even needed. As the Axis can easily protect their airspace.
3. Russian partisans come in corps...German partisans come in companies. Either upgrade the companies to brigades or remove alltogether a useless.
4. Remove all artillery less than brigade size. Move the guns to army HQ's etc.
5. Remove and combine all units less than brigade size. As most of these units are not even needed, and again only serve to clutter the map.

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RE: Bring Silvanski here... - 3/22/2008 2:11:01 PM

Karri

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And btw. finns had some stugs in active service until 1960's...but then again, that was in a time when the war was over and another one was not coming.

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