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OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 12:07:53 AM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Unearthed these pics of ships in Gibraltar harbour during WW2 and thought some of you might enjoy it. Also got a photo at school of a Hudson about to take off from the airfield here which ill add tomorrow.
Cheers




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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 12:08:24 AM   
cantona2


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Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Number 2




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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 1:17:21 AM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		How attractive for some hordes of Stukas... 

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 8:45:51 AM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		Stukas did not have the range to reach Gibraltar (I think)....

I never understood why the germans did not send a massive Ju-88 attack at Gibraltar harbour.
They would have lost some airplanes, but the gaines could have been worthwhile..... 

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 10:26:32 AM   
cantona2


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Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 12:22:48 PM   
RBG


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Joined: 6/24/2007
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Hi,
Picture no 2 was NOT taken during WWII - the apartment blocks in the foreground weren't built until after the war I think.
Also the aircraft carriers look like 60's designs not WWII era.

Nice pics though!
RBG

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 12:26:44 PM   
cantona2


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Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		RBG

You are correct. An oversite on my part. Those apartment blocks, locally known as the Humphries, were built in the 1950s to house the returning civilian population after being repatriated after being evacuated during the war.

You from Gibraltar are were you posted here?

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 1:47:14 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
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Status: offline 		I hope that AA gun in the bow of the ship in the first photo has some shielding behind them, or else when the DP gun mount behind them fires that crew is going to get some serious blast damage...

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 2:22:28 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

I know...

But still I don't understand it as well, why there weren't attacks by Ju 88 or other bombers with higher range. I even don't know about any serious aerial attack on Scapa Flow as well.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 2:24:30 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Raids on Gibraltar were limited to planes from Vichy bases in North Africa and the Regio Aeronautica

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 2:25:16 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

I know...

But still I don't understand it as well, why there weren't attacks by Ju 88 or other bombers with higher range. I even don't know about any serious aerial attack on Scapa Flow as well.


Possibly due to the fact that they would be unescorted as well as invading neutral airspace?

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 2:31:57 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		[sarcasm] No! Ya think?[/sarcasm]

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 2:39:12 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

I know...

But still I don't understand it as well, why there weren't attacks by Ju 88 or other bombers with higher range. I even don't know about any serious aerial attack on Scapa Flow as well.


Possibly due to the fact that they would be unescorted as well as invading neutral airspace?


There's no neutral country in front of scapa - and from Sardinia and Lybia, Gibraltar can be reached as well...

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Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:01:14 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		I think that a dusk attack would have had a decent chance off succes, send in 100 ju-88's with 50 or so BF-110's as s escorts to knock out the airbase (there was only a single AB on Gibraltar) and at the same time send in 100 or so He-111 and ju-88's to attack the naval base.

Heck, even trow in some Italian Cant's for good measure....

The 110's would have taken a beating by the hurricanes/spits at gibraltar (did they even have spits there in 41-42 ?) but they would have cleared the way for the bombers to smash the base and hit the ships there hard...

Gibraltar had only a single airfield (unlike Malta, which had several) which could have been closed for severall hours by even a small strike. During this time the Axis powers would have had total air superiority....

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:04:26 PM   
cantona2


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From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Willie

No Spits until Operation Torch. Hurries were based here though. Only one landing strip is correct. Gib is only about 6 square miles

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:08:28 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]


I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:10:20 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		Hmmm, I would have send in an intelligence opperative posing as a "native" fisherman to check the state of the ships. If the main British naval squadron would have been in port (can't mask Cv's/BB's in gibraltar) , a signal would have been send and the prepared attack could have been executed the next day...



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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:12:30 PM   
cantona2


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Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		That would have been Force H then Willie. Operation Felix, the proposed action against Gib makes for interesting reading. The Governor at the time, Macfarlene said that had the Germans tried to attack the Rock they would have taken one day before he had fortified it and 3 after but at something like 10,000-15,000 casualties.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:13:59 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]


I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.


In fact, when the Luftwaffe tried attacking up north during the BoB, they got their butts royally kicked. No escort fighters could reach that far (and I'm not counting the 110's, which were worthless as bomber escorts).

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:15:00 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]


I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.


You could't close down all the AF's near Scapa in a single raid, so the Brits would always be able to mass severall AF worth of fighters against your raids. Also, Scapa is MUCH bigger than Gibraltar Harbour, hence ships would have been much more dispersed inside the harbour instead of posing a single big fat target like the ones in Gibraltar..

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:15:26 PM   
cantona2


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Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Yep, one attack made by the Luftflotte in Norway and no more made after that other than very small and ineffectual raids

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:18:31 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

That would have been Force H then Willie. Operation Felix, the proposed action against Gib makes for interesting reading. The Governor at the time, Macfarlene said that had the Germans tried to attack the Rock they would have taken one day before he had fortified it and 3 after but at something like 10,000-15,000 casualties.


I must agree that an airborne assault against Gibraltar would haven been VERY costly and even if it succeeded the base would haven been virtually blockaded by the Britisch navy from the very start...

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In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:21:08 PM   
String


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Status: offline 		I've seen pics of flashes and searchlights in the night sky in an encyclopedia titled "Italian airforce attacking Gibraltar" So apparently a few night attacks were made.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:24:20 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Yes they RA made several attacks during the war and i think only a few hits recorded. Most bombs hit the sea or the neighbouring Spanish town of La Linea. Some of those searchlight emplacements were actually inside the Rock tunnels. The MASS special service of the Italian Navy also carried out attacks, more successful than their aerail counterparts, with manned torpedoes.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:27:28 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		Did't the MASS only "sink" two BB's in Alexandria?. As far as I know, they never made a succesfull attack against Gibraltar???? 

From WIKI"

"1943 October 2: A bigger Italian frogman-carrier, 33 feet long and carrying four frogmen, called Siluro San Bartolomeo, or SSB, was going to attack Gibraltar, but Italy surrendered and the attack was called off. "


< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 3/27/2008 3:29:09 PM >

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:31:42 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]


I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.


In fact, when the Luftwaffe tried attacking up north during the BoB, they got their butts royally kicked. No escort fighters could reach that far (and I'm not counting the 110's, which were worthless as bomber escorts).

Did they attack Scapa? AFAIK no!

quote:

I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

There can never be enough - if there had been the will on the German side.

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Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:31:48 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		They sank and damaged a number of merchant ships in the harbour during the course of the war. They had a decoy supply and base ship in the port of Algeciras in Spain on the other side of the Bay of Gibraltar.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Decima.html

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:38:53 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There can never be enough - if there had been the will on the German side.


I am not sure I understand your meaning here. The Luftwaffe lacked the ability to escort it's bombers to Scotland which would mean that the RAF and FAA squadrons would have a free run (so to speak) against the bombers.

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RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:47:08 PM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		To intercept an air raid totally (no bombers coming through inflicting damage), there are a lot of things that have to happen:
- the raid needs to be detected in time
- the wether must be good enough (bombing may be inaccurate in storms, but the bombers may fly home to bases with calm wether)
- there have to be enough fighters
- the fighters must inflict enough damage to drive off all the bombers...

On the other hand - if there's the will to do so - one can transfer over a thousand bombers over night to norvegian bases, one may attack early in the morning, one may fly there at low level...

If Germany had the will to accept high losses - and the Luftwaffe had this will on other operations - it can definitly mount an attack with over 300 bombers - if not more...

We have an adage in Germany "Wo ein Wille, da ein Weg" (where's a will, there's a way) - if one really wants to attack the fleet with a high chance of success, it can be done when the price is accepted...


_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 29
RE: OT-Ships in Gibraltar - 3/27/2008 3:52:36 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I'm certain the bomber pilots of Luftflotte 5 were thinking exactly that when RAF fighters tore them to pieces... Do your homework...

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