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Taking Palembang intact

 
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Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:43:54 AM   
dekwik


Posts: 90
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		My opponent in CHS has Palemabng as we enter June, at fort 7 after a couple of deliberate assaults. The port and airfield is intact and he's sitting on a ton of supplies. I have 2000AV versus 200, much of which is engineer and US marine. Is there more chance of resource damage if there's a few violent shock attacks, or better to go for a slow deliberate waering down? Or it's just random based on how many engineers he has? Any suggestions?
Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:49:55 AM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		The damage to industry is based on the number of un-disrupted engineers the defender has at the base.  Your best bet may be a couple of good naval bombardments which seem to pick on the support elements quite a bit. 

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to dekwik)
Post #: 2
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:56:16 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Air attacks help, naval bombardments help.........................but the real key is a whole lot of luck. Once out of curiosity, I ran a bunch of invasions from Dec 7 - Dec 10. I tried using an entire brigade turn 1 following a bombardment attack, result...........50% damage to resource and oil.

day 1 invasion using brigade and nothing else...........no damage to oil/res
day 2 invasion using div following 3 bombardments..........75% damage

I have alot of other examples, but really it comes down to pure dice roll.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 3
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 6:39:01 AM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Air attacks help, naval bombardments help.........................but the real key is a whole lot of luck. Once out of curiosity, I ran a bunch of invasions from Dec 7 - Dec 10. I tried using an entire brigade turn 1 following a bombardment attack, result...........50% damage to resource and oil.

day 1 invasion using brigade and nothing else...........no damage to oil/res
day 2 invasion using div following 3 bombardments..........75% damage

I have alot of other examples, but really it comes down to pure dice roll.


I completely agree with that.
I made a lot of invasion of Palembang, against IA or in PBEM and i don't understand
anything.
A lot of people and the rules say that it depend on the number of undisrupted
engineers present in the base. So, how do you explain that when i capture Miri
which is empty of allied troups, there are always some or sometimes lot's of damage.
The only thing i remarked is that, making many ground attacks without success is not
very good for the oil. One big successful attack is better.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 4
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 6:47:24 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		FYI, the *ONLY* attack that matters is the LAST attack (when the base falls).

It doesn't matter how (or how long) it takes you to grind it down.  Damage to the facilities isn't assessed until the base falls.

And yes, the name of the game have disrupted/killed as many of his engineers as possible.  The more you've killed, the better (and more likely facilities will not be destroyed).  BUT, it's still a crap-shoot.  You might have killed all his engineers, and if you get a crappy "roll", you can still see Palembang damaged.  Again, it helps your odds to kill engineers, but it's not a guarentee.

-F-

_____________________________

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(in reply to rominet)
Post #: 5
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 2:07:04 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder
It doesn't matter how (or how long) it takes you to grind it down.  Damage to the facilities isn't assessed until the base falls.

-F-


I am not sure of that.
Yes, until the base is taken, there are no damage on the facilities.
But once the base is captured, it is like the game would have a memory
of what happenned in the hex.
I saw that with Singapour.
When i capture the city in only 1 round, the facilities may have very few damage.
But, if there are many rounds before the falling of the city, the facilities are ALWAYS
completely destroyed.
That's only my own experience.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 6
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 3:11:33 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		I took enough bases in my games that were completely empty and still saw a lot of damage to the oil or resource sites...

it´s all just about luck...

_____________________________


(in reply to rominet)
Post #: 7
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 4:42:27 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 8
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 4:51:44 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 9
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:04:01 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process.


I did never think about this tactic.
But are you sure that all oil stock is given to the japanese when they capture the base??

(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 10
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:06:41 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Some of it may have been destroyed. However, if the allies couldn't get tankers in there the oil would be yours. Palembang produces A LOT of oil.

(in reply to rominet)
Post #: 11
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:23:11 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Taking the oil and resources is a matter of luck:

- there is a roll based on the number of engineers present when the base falls... i really doubt the game engine "remembers" how the fight went - if it did, there would be a decremement in the oil and resources as the battle went on, not when it fell.

Given this, however, you can have NO ENGINEERS present and still destroy the facilities (those pesky e-civilians) - one dev walked into Palembang (it was undefended) and took it - and about 90% of the facilities were destroyed the turn it fell by the e-civilians, much to his annoyance.

Similarly, the oil/resources stocks may or may not be destroyed, but this is apparently a separate die roll.

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 12
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:30:25 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Your best bet is to just be prepared to send lots of supply to repair it if necessary, and celebrate if you don't need to.  No garraunteed way to take it intact in my experience.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 13
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:46:53 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Your best bet is to just be prepared to send lots of supply to repair it if necessary, and celebrate if you don't need to.  No garraunteed way to take it intact in my experience.


That's why i never begin a major offensive campaign in China before capturing
Palembang, because i have to keep a lot of supply in case of.
In my last game, i was right to do this because Palembang Oil: (545)x155 and Res: (415)x485.
I was so shocked at this moment, i was thinking "The war is lost";
Imagine, more than one year and a half to repair at the cost of nearly 1000000 supplies
I think the game exagerates the time and the cost for repairing, but .... YES YES I KNOW,
WitP IS NOT A SIMULATION

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 14
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:55:42 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.

_____________________________


(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 15
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 5:57:31 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.



There will certainly be spoilage but that shouldn't destroy the majority of the oil.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 16
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 6:46:29 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.



There will certainly be spoilage but that shouldn't destroy the majority of the oil.


There is no spoilage for oil and resources. Spoilage occurs for fuel and supply.

_____________________________


Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mistmatz)
Post #: 17
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 7:14:54 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.



There will certainly be spoilage but that shouldn't destroy the majority of the oil.


There is no spoilage for oil and resources. Spoilage occurs for fuel and supply.


In my PBEM with Mynok, he has just landed troops at Palembang. I know how much oil is currently stored there, and I'll ask him how much was still there when he captures the place.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 18
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 7:19:11 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline 		Good idea, we are waiting for your answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.



There will certainly be spoilage but that shouldn't destroy the majority of the oil.


There is no spoilage for oil and resources. Spoilage occurs for fuel and supply.


Yes, but they don't speak about normal spoilage due to too small base but spoilage
by change of owner

< Message edited by rominet -- 3/31/2008 7:20:41 PM >

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 19
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 9:53:40 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.



There will certainly be spoilage but that shouldn't destroy the majority of the oil.


There is no spoilage for oil and resources. Spoilage occurs for fuel and supply.


In my PBEM with Mynok, he has just landed troops at Palembang. I know how much oil is currently stored there, and I'll ask him how much was still there when he captures the place.


Which won't be long

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 20
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 10:01:18 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		You're right, Bruce.  It could have already happened, but who knows how long it will be until I get the turn back from Mynok?

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 21
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 10:02:49 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
I knew you'd find this one.......

Barring more electronic rebellion, you'll get one late tonight.......


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(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 22
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 3/31/2008 10:07:11 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Just taking every opportunity to needle you from my moral low ground, since I am so slow with my turns. 

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 23
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/17/2008 6:02:43 AM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

May I ask why you waited so late to try to take it? Palembang is so important to the Japanese economy I settled with starting a seige in Singapore to free up enough troops to take the place in early January?


Unless you need the oil immediately you can let it produce for a while (meaning not entering the hex). This way you will still get the oil (from undamaged production btw...) and may even sink some blockade breakers in the process. In addition the defenders may lack supplies by that time and thus shortening the duration of the siege. But I agree June sounds a bit excessive.



unfortunately you won´t get the oil that is produced the weeks/months before you take it. I aften took it sometime in February and even though no oil was shipped out I often only got a couple of tenthousand tons of oil instead of hundredthousands. I don´t know if there is a dieroll to destroy stored oil resources also but it seems so.



There will certainly be spoilage but that shouldn't destroy the majority of the oil.


There is no spoilage for oil and resources. Spoilage occurs for fuel and supply.


In my PBEM with Mynok, he has just landed troops at Palembang. I know how much oil is currently stored there, and I'll ask him how much was still there when he captures the place.


It took a while to get back to this, but here's the result from our game:

Palembang oil stockpile when Japanese troops landed and production stopped: 99,280
Palembang oil stockpile after Japanese troops captured the base: about 60,000

This looks like firm evidence to me that there is some type of die roll to destroy oil stockpiles when a base is captured.

BTW, Mynok's Alien (wearing Japanese uniforms) troops managed to capture the 1200 oil production and 600 resource production facilities completely undamaged. I'm working to fix this "oversight" with a lot of bombers.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 24
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/17/2008 8:15:22 AM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


It took a while to get back to this, but here's the result from our game:

Palembang oil stockpile when Japanese troops landed and production stopped: 99,280
Palembang oil stockpile after Japanese troops captured the base: about 60,000

This looks like firm evidence to me that there is some type of die roll to destroy oil stockpiles when a base is captured.


Thanks for the results

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
BTW, Mynok's Alien (wearing Japanese uniforms) troops managed to capture the 1200 oil production and 600 resource production facilities completely undamaged. I'm working to fix this "oversight" with a lot of bombers.


Mynok was very lucky;
my allied opponent had the same idea but i was waiting for him


(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 25
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/18/2008 6:46:43 AM   
dekwik


Posts: 90
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		After about a week of grinding at deliberate assaults, Palembang fell with all oil and resources intact. I overestimated the engineers on defence. It was basically a stubborn marine unit with garrison forces in support.

My opponent has been defending forward and well-taking Palembang in June I know is very late. but I got lucky and took 726,000 oil intact.

I think that reinforces previous comments posted here:

the opponent should be completely disrupted before final atttack
AND
there's a huge amount of luck involved.

Can't say i mind that though. In the real world it's not like the smart and obvious alternatives, like blowing the oil early, are necesssarily automatic. or even likely!

(in reply to rominet)
Post #: 26
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/18/2008 9:20:16 AM   
Uamaga

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: Kraków, Poland
Status: offline 		Hi,
Congrats on number of Oil taken. Seems like really a lot. BTW I thought that there is no more then 100 days of oil/res production stored in allied bases but looks like was wrong... How many Oil Centers are in Palembang in this scenario?

As  far as I can  tell what  matters regarding demolition of Oil & Resource Centers on capture (besides of couple of die rolls: there is a chance of no detonation at all with lucky roll) is product of the number of non-combat engineer teams times their Experience (actually sum of products for engineers from all  units; note that Eng. Vehicles also counts; that sum is then divided by 10).  So probably one can argue that game  somehow remembers all fights in the base: more unsuccessful fights means more chances to raise enemy experience.
If there is no units in base then fixed number is taken into calculation instead (brave civilians? )
Also I'm not sure yet if disabling engineers is enough? Need more checks/tests for it...
Note also that this number (after possible multiplication by 10 due to unlucky die roll!  ) is divided by something I would call number of demolition charges needed. Actually this number is sum of: AFlevel+Portlevel+(ResC/100+1)+(OilC/100+1). Result defines percentage of destruction applied to AF, Port, and Resource/Oil Centers.

Regards.



< Message edited by Uamaga -- 4/18/2008 9:28:44 AM >

(in reply to dekwik)
Post #: 27
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/18/2008 11:02:52 AM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline 		How do you know that?
Are you living inside the computer??

(in reply to Uamaga)
Post #: 28
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/18/2008 1:08:54 PM   
Uamaga

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/17/2008
From: Kraków, Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

How do you know that?
Are you living inside the computer??


Nah, Nah! Just trying to peek inside through small hole at the back

(in reply to rominet)
Post #: 29
RE: Taking Palembang intact - 4/19/2008 9:21:09 AM   
kfmiller41


Posts: 1063
Joined: 3/25/2003
From: Saint Marys, Ga
Status: offline 		in my current PBEM I just took Palambang and the damage to the oil was 1300 out of 1400  (CHS 157)



_____________________________

You have the ability to arouse various emotions in me: please select carefully.

(in reply to Uamaga)
Post #: 30
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