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KV1 vs KV2

 
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KV1 vs KV2 - 9/26/2000 8:24:00 AM   
Tank

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Brooklyn
Status: offline 		I admit that I am not well versed in many (MANY) of the details of WWII armament. So if you will humor a newbie... The KV1's 76.2mm ZIS5 gun has, according to the encyclopedia, a penetration of 26:94 and a shell size of 4. It fires HEAT as well as APCR. The KV2's 152mm M10 gun has a penetration of 49:126, a shell size of 9 but does not fire HEAT or APCR. Am I correct so far? Please explain: 1) What do the two penetration numbers mean. 2) Am I correct in assuming that the 76.2mm is primarily an anti-tank weapon and the 152.4mm primarily an anti-infantry/soft target weapon? The reason I ask is that the 76.2, while a smaller shell, consistently gets more tank kills from greater distances than the 152.4. Is the 76.2 a rifled gun while the 152.4 a smooth-bore? Am I wasting the KV2 in an anti-tank role? Please excuse me if I have missed something obvious. Tank

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- 9/26/2000 8:28:00 AM   
Tank

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Brooklyn
Status: offline 		Oh, and while you are answering questions... Could you explain to my girlfriend that I am not "playing a wargame", but instead doing "serious research" with a superior war simulation? I owe you one, Tank

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Post #: 2
- 9/26/2000 10:44:00 AM   
nick0man

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 9/25/2000
From: arcata,ca,USA
Status: offline 		my guess it has to do with muzzle velocity do the specs say any thing about that? nick

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nick0man

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Post #: 3
- 9/26/2000 10:59:00 AM   
Hauptmann6

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Portage, MI
Status: offline 		The 76.2 was a tank gun and when mounted correctly a gun/howitzer. The 152 was just a massive short barrel infantry gun. You are correct in assuming the 76 was an AT gun when on a tank. The 152 was very good at killing soft stuff. Although the KvII was a horrid design that couldn't turn the turret if the tank was not perfectly level. And it had a other problems as well... HTH Haupt

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Post #: 4
- 9/26/2000 11:02:00 AM   
Jon Grasham

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: St.Louis, MO, US
Status: offline 		actually, the 152mm would (did) have a MUCH lower muzzle velocity. Don't have the numbers in front of me, but sorta the same physics between the German 75mm/L48 and 75mm/L24. The only explanation behind the 152s apparently higher penetration potential is the explosive power of the shell. (a howitzer can ruin a tank's day, provided the skin isn't TOO thick.

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Post #: 5
- 9/26/2000 11:18:00 AM   
Drake

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 9/4/2000
From: Kingston, Canada
Status: offline 		1) What do the two penetration numbers mean. The firts number is penatration for HE and the secound number is for AP rounds. 2) Am I correct in assuming that the 76.2mm is primarily an anti-tank weapon and the 152.4mm primarily an anti-infantry/soft target weapon? Yes The reason I ask is that the 76.2, while a smaller shell, consistently gets more tank kills from greater distances than the 152.4. Is the 76.2 a rifled gun while the 152.4 a smooth-bore? Am I wasting the KV2 in an anti-tank role? The KV-2 was never ment to fight tanks it was designed to destroy fortifications and stuff along that line. But with the start of the war the KV-2 saw action vs German armour and it was quite a shuck to the Germans who shills could not penatrate it. But its mobility and reliability was so bad that very few of them were ever made.

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Post #: 6
- 9/26/2000 1:05:00 PM   
Tank

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Brooklyn
Status: offline 		I thank all who answered my post. I think my first impression was that since the 152 made such a big BOOM that it should have some effect on thinner German armor. And indeed it did kill a few tanks. But my newbie first imperssion was KV1 good, KV2 BETTER! And so I have learned. In fact from now on I will always take a KV1 and a T-34 against armor as opposed to a KV2. In fact, though, I still like KV2's as infantry support. And the odd mopping up of, let's say, PZIII or IV's from back side. I have seen KV41 (e) slam a PZ-IV three or four times from the rear and still not get a kill! While (be it good luck or the hand of a god) A KV-2 (commander) kills TWO PZ-IV's in one move! Is it skill? Or is it the fact that the big shell just does it? And also, I love the part where it says," The tank crew is stunned by the hit" or something like that. On the other hand I can't stand " the opponents tank was hit in the rear turret" and again, and again, and f*****g again! How many times do I have to hit a rear turret before I blow the damn thing off! Sorry, I'm in the thick of it again in a general campaign w/not enough support. Or coffee. Tank On the other hand I love when a KV2 slams a Sig-33. Just my feeling. YMMV

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Post #: 7
- 9/26/2000 8:49:00 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		KV-2 will not work well as an anti-tank unit not so much because of accuracy and ROF issues but because it was never issued any AP ammo. But given the sheer size of the shell even an HE could penetrate almost 50mm of armor so light tanks would still have to watch out.

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Post #: 8
- 9/26/2000 9:38:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		You think she would listen to us? "You're all alike, you wargamers! You even cover for each other! " Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 9
- 9/27/2000 4:35:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		"Steel Panthers World at War is a detailed simulation of WW2 tactical combined arms warfare. Like any computer model it is a vital part of any researcher's tool kit. By replaying historical battles, the researcher can determine for him/herself why certain outcomes occured as they did. The 'game' aspect is a manifestation of Games Theory, randomizing events that would be beyond the control of the participants 'in real life'." Try that one...

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"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel

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Post #: 10
- 9/28/2000 1:43:00 AM   
David Roldán

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/25/2000
From: Tudela, Navarra, Spain
Status: offline 		Ten points Grumble. David

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Post #: 11
- 9/28/2000 2:45:00 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Tank, one comment to your original post. Even if bit late. When you see from encyclopedia that some gun does fire HEAT or APCR it really means only that the penetration values for that particular ammo type have been defined in the oob. whether the rounds are really available depends of the year/scenario designer/phase of the moon... Voriax

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Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

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Post #: 12
- 9/28/2000 8:19:00 AM   
Graf Speer

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 7/23/2000
Status: offline 		That's great, resident scholar and honorary professor emeritus Grumble Albert

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The Good Nazi

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Post #: 13
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