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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Cheating Page: [1]
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Cheating - 4/4/2008 9:25:09 PM   
Foggy

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: matthewcox2001@gmail.com
Status: offline 		I don't know where to start - but opponents I have played for years! -
are getting/receiving reload messages? I do have to reload certain turns -
I'm married w/children - we all know what that means :) What's up w/ this?
Post #: 1
RE: Cheating - 4/4/2008 10:02:50 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Foggy

I don't know where to start - but opponents I have played for years! -
are getting/receiving reload messages? I do have to reload certain turns -
I'm married w/children - we all know what that means :) What's up w/ this?

Hi Matt,

Are you reloading the original turns, or are you only loading the latest sequentially saved game files? If the latter, then they shouldn't be getting reload messages. Are you getting the reload messages from opponents who you've played the same scenario several times with? Are you reopening turns to watch playbacks? Are you loading the end of turn files for AAR's? Are you using different PC's to play the game (e.g., a desktop and a laptop)?

Nemo and I ran through a test to try and see if we could generate false positives but have been unsuccessful thus far. If you can think of anything out of the ordinary that might be occurring on your end, it might help us nail down whatever might be the problem.

I've seen you play, buddy, and I can vouch that you're not a cheater. Wait a minute...that didn't come out quite right.

Let's try this...you turn around the turns so fast, you can't possibly be playing them more than once. There...how's that?

(in reply to Foggy)
Post #: 2
RE: Cheating - 4/4/2008 10:30:40 PM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Foggy

I don't know where to start - but opponents I have played for years! -
are getting/receiving reload messages? I do have to reload certain turns -
I'm married w/children - we all know what that means :) What's up w/ this?

Hi Matt,

Are you reloading the original turns, or are you only loading the latest sequentially saved game files? If the latter, then they shouldn't be getting reload messages. Are you getting the reload messages from opponents who you've played the same scenario several times with? Are you reopening turns to watch playbacks? Are you loading the end of turn files for AAR's? Are you using different PC's to play the game (e.g., a desktop and a laptop)?

Nemo and I ran through a test to try and see if we could generate false positives but have been unsuccessful thus far. If you can think of anything out of the ordinary that might be occurring on your end, it might help us nail down whatever might be the problem.

I've seen you play, buddy, and I can vouch that you're not a cheater. Wait a minute...that didn't come out quite right.

Let's try this...you turn around the turns so fast, you can't possibly be playing them more than once. There...how's that?


James,

Are you trying to tell us that loading end of turn after we sent the files - that with a name "do not send" so we will get reload message? If yes then it is plainly ridicolous...

Because I like to see end of turn situation, my losses etc...

How I play? Load turn play a little - save under turn number this... and TOAW exits... then later I play a little save under same name etc... sometimes I load that position just to look at situation and this shouldn't make any reports that would be ridiculous since there was not any reloading. The anti cheat method is not bad since you cannot reload previous position and you must be happy with outcome. But reports should be generated if somebody has reloaded PREVIOUS position in a turn elapsed time. Not the same as he obviously just continue to play the game.
Or maybe I don't understand this. Maybe it is because naming but it would be foolish that I name 5 times same turn as I just keep playing it so it is saved under same name. YOu would need to do lot's of deleting if you have to save under different name.


Mario

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 3
RE: Cheating - 4/5/2008 12:25:11 AM   
Nemo69


Posts: 685
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Nowhere to be seen
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Foggy

I don't know where to start - but opponents I have played for years! -
are getting/receiving reload messages? I do have to reload certain turns -
I'm married w/children - we all know what that means :) What's up w/ this?

Hi Matt,

Are you reloading the original turns, or are you only loading the latest sequentially saved game files? If the latter, then they shouldn't be getting reload messages. Are you getting the reload messages from opponents who you've played the same scenario several times with? Are you reopening turns to watch playbacks? Are you loading the end of turn files for AAR's? Are you using different PC's to play the game (e.g., a desktop and a laptop)?

Nemo and I ran through a test to try and see if we could generate false positives but have been unsuccessful thus far. If you can think of anything out of the ordinary that might be occurring on your end, it might help us nail down whatever might be the problem.

I've seen you play, buddy, and I can vouch that you're not a cheater. Wait a minute...that didn't come out quite right.

Let's try this...you turn around the turns so fast, you can't possibly be playing them more than once. There...how's that?

How I play? Load turn play a little - save under turn number this... and TOAW exits... then later I play a little save under same name etc... sometimes I load that position just to look at situation and this shouldn't make any reports that would be ridiculous since there was not any reloading.


You should be all right with that method. We're just trying to reproduce what Foggy is experiencing. None of what you describe generates a warning in our tests.


_____________________________

Fais ce que dois

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 4
RE: Cheating - 4/5/2008 12:37:43 AM   
Monkeys Brain


Posts: 605
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:



You should be all right with that method. We're just trying to reproduce what Foggy is experiencing. None of what you describe generates a warning in our tests.



OK

So are we OK also to LOAD that end of turn file or not? If not then we must wait till opponent send his turn and we simply are not seeing end of our turn - just beginning of our turn after opponent have changed situation.


(in reply to Nemo69)
Post #: 5
RE: Cheating - 4/5/2008 1:44:48 AM   
Nemo69


Posts: 685
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Nowhere to be seen
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeys Brain


quote:



You should be all right with that method. We're just trying to reproduce what Foggy is experiencing. None of what you describe generates a warning in our tests.



OK

So are we OK also to LOAD that end of turn file or not?

Yes, it's OK to do so.

_____________________________

Fais ce que dois

(in reply to Monkeys Brain)
Post #: 6
RE: Cheating - 4/15/2008 2:46:05 PM   
Foggy

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: matthewcox2001@gmail.com
Status: offline 		Questionable turns have been sent - I really don't think I have opponents
that reload that many times

_____________________________

dazed and confused again!

(in reply to Nemo69)
Post #: 7
RE: Cheating - 4/15/2008 6:32:31 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Foggy

Questionable turns have been sent - I really don't think I have opponents
that reload that many times

Got them. Now that my taxes are finished, I'll look into them.

(in reply to Foggy)
Post #: 8
RE: Cheating - 4/16/2008 8:32:11 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Copied from my emailed reply to Matt...

While it's impossible to know for sure, it's a good
possibility that the problem is being caused by them
opening the immediately preceding turn's End of Turn
SAL.

Until you actually start some turn N, anytime that you
open an EOT SAL from turn N-1, it will count this as a
reload. Opening EOT SAL's from turns before N-1 will
not cause a reload warning.

Until Ralph can rewrite the anti-cheat code for this,
there is a workaround that you can suggest to your
opponents. Ask them to NOT open any N-1 EOT SAL's
until they have already opened, or have played, the
PBL file from turn N.

Also, ask them to not open the PBL file multiple times
to watch the replay, as that will set off the
anti-cheat warnings. This is working as designed and
contrary to the above case, is NOT a false positive.

Then, if they are still sending you files with
multiple reloads, you might worry about their honesty.
However, give them the benefit of the doubt at this
stage and see if they're willing to wait another turn
before opening the EOT SAL's for their AAR's or
whatever other reasons that cause them to feel the
need for opening them 7 or 8 times.

Hope this helps. If you have any other questions,
please feel free to ask.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 9
RE: Cheating - 4/16/2008 10:48:11 PM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1137
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline 		Here's a question. Is the anti-cheat bypassable by simply either:
1. copy&renaming the file
2. overwriting the file

Both pbl and sal...

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 10
RE: Cheating - 4/16/2008 11:02:29 PM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Here's a question. Is the anti-cheat bypassable by simply either:
1. copy&renaming the file
2. overwriting the file

Both pbl and sal...


Technically, that would be two questions, with two cases each. Arguably four questions. That's three more than your limit today. Please come back in a day or two, when your quota is refreshed...

Anyhow, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "bypassable". Are asking for directions on how to cheat the anti-cheat mechanism, and would you be upset if I didn't give them to you? That's a requested clarification and two questions, for those in the audience who are keeping track of such things...



(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 11
RE: Cheating - 4/17/2008 9:11:03 AM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1137
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline 		Sir,´you have insulted my honor. We shall duel at the dawn. Pistols or swords?

Anyways, I am simply wondering that if the anti-cheat system would be so easily bypassed, then the whole thing would be useless, and one should rather spend his time on increasing the unit limit ;)

But apparently, if I undrestood correctly the 'error' then the game system somehow stores information regarding one's pbem games.

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 12
RE: Cheating - 4/17/2008 9:34:15 AM   
L`zard


Posts: 362
Joined: 6/3/2005
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
Sir,´you have insulted my honor. We shall duel at the dawn. Pistols or swords?
Anyways, I am simply wondering that if the anti-cheat system would be so easily bypassed, then the whole thing would be useless, and one should rather spend his time on increasing the unit limit ;)
But apparently, if I undrestood correctly the 'error' then the game system somehow stores information regarding one's pbem games.


I'd suggest BEERS, preferably by the 'Masse'.......the outcome should be both 'educational and amusing'........Mr. Jone's Nieborhood, LOL!


_____________________________

"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."


(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 13
RE: Cheating - 4/17/2008 9:59:55 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Sir,´you have insulted my honor. We shall duel at the dawn. Pistols or swords?

As you have suffered the affront, you may choose...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
Anyways, I am simply wondering that if the anti-cheat system would be so easily bypassed, then the whole thing would be useless, and one should rather spend his time on increasing the unit limit ;)

It's not easily bypassed, or circumvented. The case here is that the mechanism is including something (the viewing of the immediately preceding turn's EOT SAL) as a cheat, when it shouldn't be. Simply that the mechanism is starting its tracking from a point earlier than it should, and generating a false positive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
But apparently, if I undrestood correctly the 'error' then the game system somehow stores information regarding one's pbem games.

That is Top Secret. You need double-plus clearance to even know who to ask on this one...


(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 14
RE: Cheating - 4/21/2008 6:38:51 AM   
Pax25

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 4/2/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		So basically if I play my turn, send it to my opponent, and then open the EOT .sal file before he sends it back I am going to get a cheat?

It's weird but I just did this in a large scenerio for the first time since I wanted to think about some strategy. I only did it because the manual said it was okay to do so. I wonder if it will cause a reload now?

(in reply to Foggy)
Post #: 15
RE: Cheating - 4/21/2008 7:23:46 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pax25

So basically if I play my turn, send it to my opponent, and then open the EOT .sal file before he sends it back I am going to get a cheat?

That's correct. Sorry for the problem, but the anti-cheat mechanism needs to be adjusted so that this isn't flagged as a cheat.

(in reply to Pax25)
Post #: 16
RE: Cheating - 4/21/2008 10:54:56 AM   
JMass


Posts: 2364
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pax25

So basically if I play my turn, send it to my opponent, and then open the EOT .sal file before he sends it back I am going to get a cheat?

That's correct. Sorry for the problem, but the anti-cheat mechanism needs to be adjusted so that this isn't flagged as a cheat.



I must advise all my opponents!

_____________________________

"Klotzen, nicht Kleckern!"Generaloberst Heinz Wilhelm Guderian

My boardgames collection: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/JMass?own=1&subtype=boardgame&ff=1

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 17
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