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Which AFV is the king?

 
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Which AFV is the king? - 3/19/2002 7:41:46 PM   
Saviola

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 3/17/2002
From: Hong Kong SAR
Status: offline 		Which AFV(except Maus) do you think is the most powerful available during WWII?

[list=1]
  • JagdTiger
  • King Tiger
  • Elefant
  • JS-3
  • or others...?
    [/list=1]:)
    • Post #: 1
    - 3/19/2002 8:01:49 PM   
    M4Jess


    Posts: 5140
    Joined: 1/17/2002
    From: DC
    Status: offline     		M4A3E8 "easy 8" oh yeah baby!!!

    M4

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    Post #: 2
    The PZ 39H RAK from the Czech OOB rules! - 3/19/2002 8:23:43 PM   
    Dogmeat

     

    Posts: 9
    Joined: 12/14/2001
    Status: offline     		As long as the flame rockets do as much damage as they do, like flamethrowers and other napalm weapons, a few of those attached to ammo carrier squads, you got a rolling wall of death. :)

    Another one from the Czech OOB is the 12.8 Pz Sfl V. With the 128 mm barrel, good speed and relative small size, this was one mean mother for ambushing. Call it a King Marder. :)

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 3
    - 3/19/2002 8:23:56 PM   
    Marc von Martial


    Posts: 10875
    Joined: 1/4/2001
    From: Bonn, Germany
    Status: offline     		Jagdtiger: way too unreliable, limited tactical value, big gun but bad concept

    King Tiger: way too unreliable, bad engine, way to heavy, way to slow, big gun but bad concept

    Elefant: all of the above

    JS3: didn´t even saw action

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    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 4
    - 3/19/2002 11:13:42 PM   
    FNG


    Posts: 514
    Joined: 1/3/2002
    From: Devizes, UK
    Status: offline     		KV-8. Toasts just about anything (especially with a squad of Tankos on the back).

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    FNG
    Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 5
    - 3/20/2002 8:10:25 AM   
    NaKATPase

     

    Posts: 202
    Joined: 3/14/2002
    From: Madison, WI
    Status: offline     		Of the ones you listed, JS-3...

    It seemed to have the most influence on post wwii tank design...
    Therefore, there must have been something good about it... :)

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 6
    - 3/20/2002 9:57:26 AM   
    Fallschirmjager


    Posts: 6793
    Joined: 3/18/2002
    From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
    Status: offline     		Why wouldnt it? It had a good engine, thick armor and a big ass 128mm gun that could tear thourgh the Hornets hull.

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    Post #: 7
    - 3/20/2002 10:48:26 AM   
    Daniel Oskar


    Posts: 123
    Joined: 12/15/2000
    Status: offline     		I've gotta go with the T-34 or M-4. Quantity has a quality of its own. Besides, the big german cats may have been technically impressive, but if its broken or out of gas, its just a pillbox.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 8
    - 3/20/2002 11:34:42 AM   
    parusski


    Posts: 4804
    Joined: 5/8/2000
    From: Jackson Tn
    Status: offline     		In SPWAW I find the Jagdtiger to kick butt. It had it's limitations but I use it when it becomes available. Knocks hell out of everything.

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    Post #: 9
    - 3/20/2002 3:05:33 PM   
    risto.nikula

     

    Posts: 30
    Joined: 5/8/2001
    From: Lappi, Finland
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
    [B]

    JS3: didn´t even saw action [/B][/QUOTE]

    about that...

    I'm not sure were they uset in other fronts, but there was one used in finnish front,. this particular js3 was destroyed by single shot from lahti at-rifle. The wreckage was investigated, and apparently the bullet went throug the drivers driver's hatch(what is the correct word for the small view hole?) and the riccocet killed everyone inside.

    and the tanks:

    ot34/85,firefly,hellcat, late stugs and panthers.

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    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 10
    - 3/20/2002 3:09:18 PM   
    Saviola

     

    Posts: 42
    Joined: 3/17/2002
    From: Hong Kong SAR
    Status: offline     		FNG, is there a KV-8?

    T-34, M4 are good, but maybe their armor are too thin, totally outclassed by any of the tigers...jagdTiger doesn't seem to be as slow as Koenigstiger(By,SPWaW)

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 11
    - 3/20/2002 4:49:20 PM   
    skukko


    Posts: 1928
    Joined: 10/24/2000
    From: Finland
    Status: offline     		stug is good. Ask from my pbem opponents.

    but I would say it is Plain Tiger in this poll. It has enough ammo and survives most first shots. Used as it was used in actuall battles, it is killer. In war only JABOs were its problem. (Jagdbombers)

    KV-8 is good also and I do like to use KV with 85mm gun...

    Allied had Firefly and tankdestroyer Jackson which is in this game real pain in AXIS ass...

    mosh

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 12
    - 3/20/2002 4:58:03 PM   
    FNG


    Posts: 514
    Joined: 1/3/2002
    From: Devizes, UK
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saviola
    [B]FNG, is there a KV-8?[/B][/QUOTE]

    It's a KV-1 chassis with a 45mm main gun and a flamethrower (2 hex range). Fantastic for breaking through infantry formations and ambushing tanks (the FT gives you a chance to kill anything).

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    FNG
    Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 13
    - 3/20/2002 7:18:19 PM   
    Saviola

     

    Posts: 42
    Joined: 3/17/2002
    From: Hong Kong SAR
    Status: offline     		Thx,FNG.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 14
    - 3/20/2002 7:49:44 PM   
    Penetrator

     

    Posts: 268
    Joined: 3/11/2002
    From: Iceland
    Status: offline     		Not this crap again!

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    Post #: 15
    - 3/21/2002 12:12:07 AM   
    wargamer

     

    Posts: 4
    Joined: 9/1/2001
    From: Sweden
    Status: offline     		The Panther G! No doubt. Fast, reliable and the most effective 75 mm gun tht could take out anything but the heaviest russians. The germans also had the best tank commanders and tank doctorine.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 16
    - 3/21/2002 12:34:05 AM   
    screamer

     

    Posts: 299
    Joined: 7/21/2001
    From: The Netherlands,
    Status: offline     		heheh i mostly use TD's especially hetzers and JPZ4 in support of infantry to kill tanks?? in the open another tank in woods urban or shatterd woods ENGINEERS!! a satchel or flametrower and they go BOOOOM

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    poep

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    Post #: 17
    - 3/21/2002 12:59:33 AM   
    Gen.Hoepner


    Posts: 3645
    Joined: 9/4/2001
    From: italy
    Status: offline     		Well,for me the panther.It's perfect:fast,reliable,easy to handle,even easy to product(with Albert Speer on your side^__^),and its 75mm long barreled gun is one of the best gun of the war.Probably in the western front this was the King of the field

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 18
    - 3/21/2002 2:26:00 AM   
    rlc27

     

    Posts: 306
    Joined: 7/21/2001
    From: Connecticut, USA
    Status: offline     		Which is the best? Hard to say--each AFV is meant for different circumstances, and each will perish if not accompanied and supported by infantry and artillery.

    If I had to pick an overall favorite given favorable armor terrain like steppe, I'd say the Panther A or G, combining as they did many good overall characteristics, including speed, firepower, armor. For defensive battles, give me the keys to a King Tiger any day. Jagdtigers are good on defense but reload rather slowly and carry limited ammo--I think I'd rather have a Ferdinand or an Elefant; better yet a Jagdpanther, which looks cool in addition to being able to take care of just about anything it runs into.

    I'm also a big fan of KV-1, which was really Russia's Tiger before there was such a thing. Like Matildas too, they're just so sssslow and the main gun stinks.

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    Post #: 19
    Re: Which AFV is the king? - 3/21/2002 6:06:07 AM   
    V-man

     

    Posts: 151
    Joined: 12/10/2001
    From: Indiana
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saviola
    [B]Which AFV(except Maus) do you think is the most powerful available during WWII?

    [list=1]
  • JagdTiger
  • King Tiger
  • Elefant
  • JS-3
  • or others...?
    [/list=1]:) [/B][/QUOTE]

    Panther, late model, say the "D" model...

    Fast, reliable, *good* gun...

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    Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

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    • Post #: 20
    - 3/21/2002 2:37:35 PM   
    Saviola

     

    Posts: 42
    Joined: 3/17/2002
    From: Hong Kong SAR
    Status: offline     		Interesting...but what I am trying to say is that which is the most probable to survive in head to head firing during close encounter.
    Maybe the tigers are just too slow, but you can't penetrate it with a T-34 before it blow it, right?

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 21
    - 3/21/2002 4:10:38 PM   
    Bernie


    Posts: 1779
    Joined: 3/15/2002
    From: Depot HQ - Virginia
    Status: offline     		I've actually had good results with the SdKfz-234/4

    75mm gun with a penetration of 146, fast and easy to hide, cheap to buy, and when used in squads they can rip into rear areas and take out mobile arty very easily. True, they had squat for armor, but that's why they were fast.

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    Post #: 22
    - 3/21/2002 7:37:37 PM   
    black_feather

     

    Posts: 10
    Joined: 1/8/2002
    From: East Yorkshire, England
    Status: offline     		Panthers have to be the best, they combine speed, fire power and protection all the other tanks in the war shunned one for the other so I think the panther was probably the first true MBT

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    Post #: 23
    - 3/21/2002 11:54:28 PM   
    Belisarius


    Posts: 4041
    Joined: 5/26/2001
    From: Gothenburg, Sweden
    Status: offline     		The Panther truly stand above the huge crowd that makes up WWII AFV's... but I'm not sure if it'd really come out on top vs. a T-34 '85

    The 34s were much more rugged and reliable, although maybe lacking protection vs. larger guns. But so did the Panther, on the rear and sides! Both tanks also suffered from too weak a transmission. (due to weight)

    IMO, the Panther should've had:

    *Thicker armor protection allround.

    *To make the above possible, it'd need a new powerhouse, drivetrain and suspension. But that would be possible. The Maybach HL230 could easily stand a good deal of tweaking.

    *and ofcourse with "modern" tactics, each and every one of them should be equipped with infrared sights and two-way radio sets :D

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    Got StuG?

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    Post #: 24
    - 3/22/2002 12:55:08 AM   
    AbsntMndedProf


    Posts: 1780
    Joined: 7/6/2001
    From: Boston, Massachusetts
    Status: offline     		From what little I know, I'd say, as individual units, the King Tiger was probably the toughest. However, they were not produced in sufficient numbers to become an overwhelming force over-all.

    Eric Maietta

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    Post #: 25
    - 3/22/2002 6:44:07 AM   
    Gen.Hoepner


    Posts: 3645
    Joined: 9/4/2001
    From: italy
    Status: offline     		For what i know,if Hitler after the French Campaign in 40 didn't waste so much time and concentrated the german industrial production in projecting new tanks,probably the king tiger could have been produced already in 1942....so the Panther...and so on...but it's just an idea^__^

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 26
    - 3/22/2002 7:41:37 AM   
    Saviola

     

    Posts: 42
    Joined: 3/17/2002
    From: Hong Kong SAR
    Status: offline     		Gen. Hoepner, if this really happened, besides King tiger and Panthers would be produced much earlier, also probably the PzKpfw VII (Loewe) or Maus or Panthers II would be on the battlefields...That would be a nightmare for Allies, I think.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 27
    - 3/22/2002 8:15:32 AM   
    sven


    Posts: 10293
    Joined: 3/28/2000
    From: brickyard
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by M4 Jess
    [B]M4A3E8 "easy 8" oh yeah baby!!!

    M4 [/B][/QUOTE]

    The Sherman and T34.... the REAL dynamic duo...

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    Post #: 28
    - 3/22/2002 8:19:37 AM   
    Tomanbeg

     

    Posts: 4385
    Joined: 7/14/2000
    From: Memphis, Tn, CSA
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by risto.nikula
    [B]

    about that...

    I'm not sure were they uset in other fronts, but there was one used in finnish front,. this particular js3 was destroyed by single shot from lahti at-rifle. The wreckage was investigated, and apparently the bullet went throug the drivers driver's hatch(what is the correct word for the small view hole?) and the riccocet killed everyone inside.

    and the tanks:

    ot34/85,firefly,hellcat, late stugs and panthers. [/B][/QUOTE]

    The most powerful was the Tiger II with 700 hp. Tied was the Panther with the same Engine(I forget what mark). The JS-3 had a 690 hp engine, so it would be #2 I guess. Combat effectveness is another matter. And are we talking tactical, operational or Strategic? Stratigic my $ is on the sherman. Cheap, Light it was easy to ship around the world. It was a good tank for killing natives, didn't need as much in the way of logistics as most armor of that day. The M4 series(SPA, Tanks, TD, Engineering vehicles, etc.), might have been the most relaible vehicle of it's kind and day. Remember the T-34 was shipped from the factory with an extra gear box straped to the deck. The Panther and TigerII were just as bad. If a real war Soviet Commander, I wouldn't worry about Tigers. Let them drive around for a while then shoot the crew after it breaks down. They can be a bitch in WaW, if used properly.
    BTW the JS-3(T-10 series) had Periscopes for the driver( an Idea they picked up from the American Lend Lease vehicles). So it would have been impossible for a ATR round to penatrate a slot that doesn't exist. Some body is either blowing smoke, or has mis-identafied the Tank that was killed. Not unusual. In normandy, Almost every tank kill was credited to the 88, but whan the brits and ami went thru the records post war, There were very few 88's in normandy. The Efficent germans sent most to the East where they were needed to deal with the heavier Soviet Armor. In von Lucks book he describes how he took control at gunpoint of a 88 battery and used it against tanks. He goes into 88 fear later in the book. His recon Battl had the Lorrine chassies with 76.2 ATG's grafted on them. Only according to the guys on theother side of the hill, 88's were slaughtering them. von Luck says it was 75's and 76.2's that were doing the killing. All this proves how easy it is for someone to make mistakes in the confusion of battle.
    T.

    (in reply to Saviola)
    Post #: 29
    - 3/22/2002 10:05:01 PM   
    screamer

     

    Posts: 299
    Joined: 7/21/2001
    From: The Netherlands,
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saviola
    [B]Gen. Hoepner, if this really happened, besides King tiger and Panthers would be produced much earlier, also probably the PzKpfw VII (Loewe) or Maus or Panthers II would be on the battlefields...That would be a nightmare for Allies, I think. [/B][/QUOTE]

    and a logistic nightmare for the germans

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    poep

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    Post #: 30
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