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anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/18/2008 5:52:44 AM

borner

Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline

Is anyone else out there about fed up withthe gabe bugs??? Seriously, I know there was a lot of presure to get this game released, but if it was not ready, it should have been held back. In one game, French garrisons disappear,and the minors go netrual, in another, Russian corps disappear, in another, Turkey declares on Austria, but then in the land phase, no war exists, in another, GB's fleets cannot sail to break a blockade. I feel so cheated having spent full price on a game that is not playable. If someone from Matrix is reading this, can you please give us an update on when a playable verison of this game will be released, and can those of us that bought the first verison get an updated CD with a workable game???? IO am sorry for being so upset, but it's very fustrating to put in the time every evening with 6 other players, and have things like this happen.

Post #: 1

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/18/2008 4:43:06 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Borner,

I'm very sorry that you've been having such trouble with EIA. All I can say is that we're working with Marshall to resolve all reported issues as quickly as we can and we will continue to do that until they're fixed.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to borner)

Post #: 2

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/18/2008 6:00:26 PM

Dave_T

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Sunny Rowner
Status: offline

I am and have. Every "patch" causes more bugs which we, as paying customers, are asked to find & report. I've asked for a refund, but my request has been ignored and, as far as I can tell, the email hasn't even been read.

This is the last time I buy a game as an online download, next time it will be from a hish street shop as you can take it back & ask for a refund directly rather than hoping someone reads the email you sent.

The treament we get as customers, as in "a patch will be available soon/tomorrow/end of week" which never happens, is disgusting.

Matrix have clearly decided that recouping some of the money spent on the development of this game needed to be recouped and resulted in the release of a product which clearly was not ready and, IMHO, was not fit for purpose when realeased and did not, IMHO, even meet the invitation to treat set out on the website.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 3

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 12:37:10 AM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

resulted in the release of a product which clearly was not ready

Dave_T, the concensus of EiA players interested in this game WANTED to have it released early, warts and all. Everyone here fully understood there were still some bugs and issues to resolve, an editor and other scenarios to release later, the AI to update over time, etc. These shortcomings were also addressed in game reviews. Perhaps you missed all that. Matrix and the developer have fully acknowledged these known shortcomings and are committed to resolving them.

Most of us have been waiting for over 5 years for this game and are willing to help work through the issues. A few more months isn't going to make much difference. My friendly suggestion to you and others unwilling to help would be to just set the game aside for a little while and come back later after a couple of official patches (not the beta patches) are released.

(in reply to borner)

Post #: 4

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 2:06:11 AM

Dave_T

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Sunny Rowner
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

resulted in the release of a product which clearly was not ready

Dave_T, the concensus of EiA players interested in this game WANTED to have it released early, warts and all. Everyone here fully understood there were still some bugs and issues to resolve, an editor and other scenarios to release later, the AI to update over time, etc. These shortcomings were also addressed in game reviews. Perhaps you missed all that. Matrix and the developer have fully acknowledged these known shortcomings and are committed to resolving them.

Most of us have been waiting for over 5 years for this game and are willing to help work through the issues. A few more months isn't going to make much difference. My friendly suggestion to you and others unwilling to help would be to just set the game aside for a little while and come back later after a couple of official patches (not the beta patches) are released.

Read the advertising for the game, legally known as an invitation to treat. At no point does it say this game is still in development and is sold as a fully developed product, not as a product in development. This is misleading advertising.

Due to my financial situation, working in the voluntary sector, the $70 spent on this game is a major investment, not just soemthing I want to set aside for when/if it is ever finished.

I, too, have been waiting 5 years for this to be released, being a 15 year EiA veteran, and feel abused at being misled by the advetising for a finished product both through the advertising on this website abd the post on the EiA forums saying this game was finally releaed in December.

Because you were happy to buy a game still in development doesn't mean that we, who think we were conned into buying a finished product, should be happy.

Even more, after emailing support and Erik directly asking for a refund I don't even get an acknowledgment of receipt of complaint, never mind a polite refusal.

If this product worked, then yes it's worth $70. As it is it is not worth anything as it not fit for the purpose sold. I an quite easily carry on using cyberboard ($free) & notepad ($free with O/S), as I have for the last 10 years, to play EiA by email not some product that would be fitting in the catalogue of a snake oil merchant.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 5

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 2:33:09 AM

ChristianKnudsen

Posts: 12
Joined: 9/24/2005
Status: offline

Caveat Emptor, I guess.

Having said that, I think of this one as a chance to help develop a game that I have been waiting to play on the computer for ages. Will even the 'finished' product be as good as seven people playing face to face? No. Is it virtually impossible to get seven people together on a regular basis for long enough to actually play the complete board game? You bet. I understand the frustrations of those who are having enough troubles with the game to make it 'unplayable', but I like to keep the following in mind.

1. $70 or no, it's only a game.

2. Eventually, it will be 'fully playable', with different scenarios, a beefed up AI, etc. I do not see the development team just giving up on this one - they seem to be genuine fans of the game, and to enjoy actually playing it as much as we do. If one doesn't like the game as stands, shelve it for the moment and come back in six months. In the interim, I will still be enjoying playing even a flawed version, which is more EIA than my schedule permits me to get anywhere else at the moment. Demanding one's money back at this point seems a bit premature if computer EIA is what you want in the long term. Look on it as a long-term investment, if you will.

3. Had the designers waited until they were really finished, we would be EIA-less for a lot longer. I think an early release, while a bit frustrating, will get us a finished product far more quickly.

In fact I wish I was more able to help the designers out and get this one perfected sooner.
Damn job and family!

(in reply to Dave_T)

Post #: 6

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 2:55:09 AM

Dave_T

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Sunny Rowner
Status: offline

quote:

Caveat Emptor, I guess.
.
.
.
I do not see the development team just giving up on this one

Buyer beware does not come into consideration when the product does not match the advertising.

The development team have already srated to quit, see "Mondaman"'s post.

(in reply to ChristianKnudsen)

Post #: 7

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 3:40:18 AM

TheHellPatrol

Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

This release only confirmed my belief that Matrix is trying to do too many things at once. This release was imho a total disaster, in addition to all the bugs we all knew we'd see, the interface is beyond words....terrible. I put up with all the growing pains back with War In The Pacific, i couldn't play with sound etc,etc...and it took months(yes months) to get my CD copy. Patches that fixed one thing broke another etc... Tin Soldiers stopped working after awhile, people complained on the forum but it was never resolved. Supremacy CTD'ed every planetary battle even after the patch at which the game/forum died. I won't even discuss Hussar Games

. That's just the tip of the iceberg, to answer your question....Yes! I'm done with this. I'm not going to say i won't ever download again but it will probably only be an SSG product, which get smaller and less meaty every release

, or the upcoming WITP Admirals edition which "should" be playable (amen).
I have almost every Matrix game and two copies of many of them, i am no longer willing to blindly part with my money for a company that is trying to be the Jack Of All Trades, and therefore, the Master Of None.

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to Dave_T)

Post #: 8

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 4:36:10 AM

Dave_T

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Sunny Rowner
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

Tin Soldiers stopped working after awhile, people complained on the forum but it was never resolved. Supremacy CTD'ed every planetary battle even after the patch at which the game/forum died.

Thta's what I'm worried about, that Matrix just throw the towel in on the game leaving us customers swinging in the wind with no product for our expenditure and just move on to the next project.

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 9

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 5:55:37 AM

borner

Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline

Erik

Thank you for your thoughts. I must say that I agree with several comments here. I do not remember anywhere saying that the game was a Beta version, or still in test. I beleive Matrix gave into presure to get a product out a bit too soon. I understand that no first release is going to be perfect, but those of us paying full price for a product, have a right to expect a product that works. That being said, I do feel that the more issues, the more preusre to send out a pach before that has been tested, and thus even more issues. Minor speedbumps are to be expected, but DOw's not being processed? Whole fleets not being able to move out of port? These can ruin a game that people invest months into. I have no idea what the answers are, I just wish Matrix had been more honest.

(in reply to Dave_T)

Post #: 10

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 6:13:46 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave_T
Even more, after emailing support and Erik directly asking for a refund I don't even get an acknowledgment of receipt of complaint, never mind a polite refusal.

I received your e-mail today and forwarded it to Dave for a decision.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Dave_T)

Post #: 11

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 6:21:18 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
I put up with all the growing pains back with War In The Pacific, i couldn't play with sound etc,etc...and it took months(yes months) to get my CD copy. Patches that fixed one thing broke another etc...

Are you claiming that war in the Pacific is unplayable?

quote:

Tin Soldiers stopped working after awhile, people complained on the forum but it was never resolved.

It works fine (both Alexander and Julius Caesar) and is one of the most bug-free releases we've ever had. What problem are you experiencing?

quote:

Supremacy CTD'ed every planetary battle even after the patch at which the game/forum died.

FWIW, I don't recall it CTDing every time, but in any case the issue there was that the developer stopped working with us on it. As far as I know it was playable from the first release though, I recall getting through multiple planetary battles during pre-release testing.

quote:

I won't even discuss Hussar Games. That's just the tip of the iceberg, to answer your question....

Please do. Honestly, I feel like you've cherry picked and even so most of your examples don't make sense to me, having played the games myself. It's hard for me to believe this is the tip of any iceberg.

quote:

I have almost every Matrix game and two copies of many of them, i am no longer willing to blindly part with my money for a company that is trying to be the Jack Of All Trades, and therefore, the Master Of None.

I think the most fair thing to say is that initial releas quality does vary with some being more buggy than others. In all cases, we try to make sure any reported issues are resolved ASAP. We may have made the wrong decision on the timing of the release of EIA. We went along with recommendations received from several quarters regarding the readiness of the game and we're not happy that some customers view it several months post-release as being a mess.

We will continue to work with Marshall and give him all the support we can to get EIA up to your expectations. I can't really say more than that we are not dropping anything, we are still working on it and will conitnue to do so. I think a fair assessment of our past support on our titles will actually show that we generally go above and beyond in post-release support to try to ensure customer satisfaction.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 12

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 6:22:24 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: borner
Minor speedbumps are to be expected, but DOw's not being processed? Whole fleets not being able to move out of port? These can ruin a game that people invest months into. I have no idea what the answers are, I just wish Matrix had been more honest.

If we had realized such serious issues existed, we would not have released the game without more work. Honestly.

I have to say that the pre-release feedback and the experiences of our own staff who tested it as well as the staff at ADG was not "this is a disaster" but rather "it's ready to go" and I'm not sure why there is such a disconnect between their experiences and those of some members of this community. Our goal is to continue development post-release until all issues that can be resolved are resolved.

What do you feel are the most serious outstanding unfixed issues as of the latest public beta?

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/19/2008 6:28:25 AM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to borner)

Post #: 13

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 6:57:43 AM

TheHellPatrol

Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
I put up with all the growing pains back with War In The Pacific, i couldn't play with sound etc,etc...and it took months(yes months) to get my CD copy. Patches that fixed one thing broke another etc...

A)Are you claiming that war in the Pacific is unplayable?

quote:

Tin Soldiers stopped working after awhile, people complained on the forum but it was never resolved.

B)It works fine (both Alexander and Julius Caesar) and is one of the most bug-free releases we've ever had. What problem are you experiencing?

quote:

Supremacy CTD'ed every planetary battle even after the patch at which the game/forum died.

C)FWIW, I don't recall it CTDing every time, but in any case the issue there was that the developer stopped working with us on it. As far as I know it was playable from the first release though, I recall getting through multiple planetary battles during pre-release testing.

quote:

I won't even discuss Hussar Games. That's just the tip of the iceberg, to answer your question....

D)Please do. Honestly, I feel like you've cherry picked and even so most of your examples don't make sense to me, having played the games myself. It's hard for me to believe this is the tip of any iceberg.

Regards,

- Erik

Dear Sir, Points:
A)Not at all, unlike some who claim you guys "ruined" Witp with too many patches i personally think you guys did a great job following up with this monster. Of course, you had less eggs in the frying pan

.

B)There was an issue that a few users reported re: ctd's/freeze after a long period of playtime. I got to that point and experienced it as well and never saw any solution on the support forum. A few frustrated users kept brining it up to no avail. It was a long time ago and that game vanished some 2 PC's ago so it's a vague memory.

C)You don't recall it CTD'ing "every" time says enough

...it might have had two non CTD's in a row

...dev's split/enough said.

D) We went thru this on their forum and it shouldn't waste space here...they are another example imho of a "flighty"(used this word before) developer who made careless mistakes.

I did "cherry pick" what were some of the worst experiences i've had in the past , i'm not like some other fellow who's out to "get even"

, and i wanted to show examples of how a longtime follower can lose his faith. There was a time when i jumped on every release, when you guys released Battlefront there was much
speculation/hinting/assumption that there would be more scenarios like its predecessors. Another example was the release of Close Combat:Modern Tactics....no campaign? I didn't buy that one so i can't complain, i am merely showing my dissappointment to the OP re: this whole EiA mess and how it is just getting old

. I have made many friends here over the years and i know i'm not just speaking for myself. The general consensus among us "select few", if you will, is that you guys have spread yourselves too thin and its taking its toll imo with your ability to support/prepare for current and future releases of which many are improved re-iterations of past games.

P.S. Oh, and let me add that i didn't mention the part about "dropping" anything, i imagine you, if possible, will eventually get it in decent shape...i...hope.

< Message edited by TheHellPatrol -- 4/19/2008 7:00:55 AM >

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 14

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 7:46:19 AM

Gravit

Posts: 12
Joined: 1/20/2008
Status: offline

While the latest patch did fix many bugs, I too feel ripped off by Matrix. This was my first Matrix game and I picked it up while I patiently waited for Worlds in Flame because I read the advertisement and thought that this was a finished product. The initial release clearly wasn't a finished product.

What I find disturbing is how pzngdr who claims that the game was knowingly released prematurely to appease grognards (and by definition falesly advertised as a finished product) and then Matrix claiming that the product was tested. So which is true?

Add in posts from other threads that playtesters admit to not having done much on testing.

I'm concerned that this will never have a playable AI and feel ripped off. While fanboyz may enjoy playing this game, paying customers really should be given some opportunity of a refund, or at the very least, perhaps in the form of a download of a game we can actully play until or if Matrix ever gets this thing fully playable.

Also, Matrix really should post a note indicating that the AI is only for training purposes and multi player games will be required at this point in time for a challening game. Do that, and those of us without opponents wouldn't feel ripped off.

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 15

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 7:48:51 AM

Gravit

Posts: 12
Joined: 1/20/2008
Status: offline

That admission of non-challenging AI should be placed as a warning label both on the product and in all advertisements, imho, until this gets playable.

(in reply to Gravit)

Post #: 16

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 7:49:57 AM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hello

I do not feel the game is unplayable and many gamers are playing it. At the same time I also do understand there are some items that need fixing and/or adjusting. Marshall and Matrix are dedicated to improving the game and our history of working with our community more then proves this. Marshall and myself will be talking to work out addressing some of these issues quicker to make the game more stable for those players having problems. For the record this game was played and tested not only by us but also ADG and we felt it it was stable for release. For some gamers this has not been the case and we are working on correcting that. We are are also putting more checks into our beta patches to avoid the issues that have happened in the past. Please remember that a beta version is NOT a fully tested patch.

_____________________________

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 17

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 8:06:31 AM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hi Gravit

I can not find were Matrix ever said this was a pre-release version and if someone did they were wrong. What is my understanding is that many posters here asked us to make a pre-release version. We did feel this was a good release and did not expect as many problems as were found. Since its release more issues have come up then I would have liked and we will address them. The AI for this is also going to be harder to handle because its was designed from a board game and not the computer from the ground up. Upon release some customers enjoyed the game and some did not and after some time others learned more about the AI.

I am sorry you feel ripped off and this is not the result we want. But in this case we need more time to address these issues. We are not letting this drop and addressing the problems.

_____________________________

(in reply to David Heath)

Post #: 18

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 6:54:12 PM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline

I've played multiple games against the AI. I have had almost no issues with the game thus far, BUT I played the board game. It would be interesting to see if users without EiA experience are suffering more issues than users with. I think that might speak to the coding (error checking) in the sense that maybe it was coded with an experienced EiA user in mind.

That said, although $70 is a lot for a PC game, it's not like it's much more than other PC games that go for around ~$50 that have the same problems. I have not experienced any problems with EiANW that I have not experienced with any other PC game that I have played, whether it be Strategy, Tactical, FPS, RTS, etc, etc...

That is why they make patches. ****, you really don't need to look beyond Microsoft to see this pattern of modern software. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it so long as support is not cut-off prematurely.

(in reply to David Heath)

Post #: 19

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 9:25:01 PM

Tanan Fujiwara

Posts: 23
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

Is it really just me or has the world gone mad...

I believe that if you pay 70$ for a game, a price above your average PC game, it's because the product you're getting is above average too...

But forget about the money, which is not really the issue, and lets focus on threethings that are really schocking to me:

1� if the excuse behind the many bugs and braindead AI is that other games and companies experience the same problem on release, it's a preatty bad excuse... come on, it just sounds like "since everybody isn't profesional so are we"??...

2� the game came out like the perfect simulation of the original EiA strategy game, which it isn't. Many of the optional rules are absent, map and corp changes, some rules have been redisigned, many rules from EiH (why is the game called EiA is a guess to me), etc..

3� if the game is supposed to be ment as the ultimate multiplayer tool (without the optionals and the scenarios amongst other things is way to limited), since the AI is compleately braindead, then it too fails to live up to its expectations. I'm right now playing three campaigns, two of them with cyberboard, and both of them move at a faster pace then the one played with this game...

so forget the 70$ issue, forget that matrix games has released something that could have been a great game and that now will take months, maybe years to fix and probably it will still be limited in many aspects, forget many desilusionated fans of the game, forget the bugs, forget...

I don't now to you guys, but it seems an awfull lot of forgetting to me...

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 20

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 10:28:54 PM

TheHellPatrol

Posts: 1588
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanan Fujiwara

Is it really just me or has the world gone mad...

I believe that if you pay 70$ for a game, a price above your average PC game, it's because the product you're getting is above average too...

But forget about the money, which is not really the issue, and lets focus on threethings that are really schocking to me:

1� if the excuse behind the many bugs and braindead AI is that other games and companies experience the same problem on release, it's a preatty bad excuse... come on, it just sounds like "since everybody isn't profesional so are we"??...

2� the game came out like the perfect simulation of the original EiA strategy game, which it isn't. Many of the optional rules are absent, map and corp changes, some rules have been redisigned, many rules from EiH (why is the game called EiA is a guess to me), etc..

3� if the game is supposed to be ment as the ultimate multiplayer tool (without the optionals and the scenarios amongst other things is way to limited), since the AI is compleately braindead, then it too fails to live up to its expectations. I'm right now playing three campaigns, two of them with cyberboard, and both of them move at a faster pace then the one played with this game...

so forget the 70$ issue, forget that matrix games has released something that could have been a great game and that now will take months, maybe years to fix and probably it will still be limited in many aspects, forget many desilusionated fans of the game, forget the bugs, forget...

I don't now to you guys, but it seems an awfull lot of forgetting to me...

Well, here we have an educated response from someone who HAS played EiA and it ain't pretty. So much for the EiA vets theory(only noobs are having trouble), i don't think much more could be said other than....Oops

It's not about the money guys, but just because you pay a huge markup for a fake diamond the fact remains that it is still a "fake".

_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau

(in reply to Tanan Fujiwara)

Post #: 21

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/19/2008 10:55:51 PM

Dave_T

Posts: 50
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Sunny Rowner
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanan Fujiwara

Is it really just me or has the world gone mad...

I believe that if you pay 70$ for a game, a price above your average PC game, it's because the product you're getting is above average too...

But forget about the money, which is not really the issue, and lets focus on threethings that are really schocking to me:

1� if the excuse behind the many bugs and braindead AI is that other games and companies experience the same problem on release, it's a preatty bad excuse... come on, it just sounds like "since everybody isn't profesional so are we"??...

2� the game came out like the perfect simulation of the original EiA strategy game, which it isn't. Many of the optional rules are absent, map and corp changes, some rules have been redisigned, many rules from EiH (why is the game called EiA is a guess to me), etc..

3� if the game is supposed to be ment as the ultimate multiplayer tool (without the optionals and the scenarios amongst other things is way to limited), since the AI is compleately braindead, then it too fails to live up to its expectations. I'm right now playing three campaigns, two of them with cyberboard, and both of them move at a faster pace then the one played with this game...

so forget the 70$ issue, forget that matrix games has released something that could have been a great game and that now will take months, maybe years to fix and probably it will still be limited in many aspects, forget many desilusionated fans of the game, forget the bugs, forget...

I don't now to you guys, but it seems an awfull lot of forgetting to me...

Well, here we have an educated response from someone who HAS played EiA and it ain't pretty. So much for the EiA vets theory(only noobs are having trouble), i don't think much more could be said other than....Oops
It's not about the money guys, but just because you pay a huge markup for a fake diamond the fact remains that it is still a "fake".

I've been playing EiA for 15 years both F2F and PBeM using Cyberboard/XL/Notepad, so it's not EiA that's giving me the problem, but the inteface.

As an aggrssive player I manipulata Egypt when playing GB or Fr so I have a staging point for a war agaunst Turkey. In the original release if you landed home nation corps in Egypt whilst the Tu/Egypt minor war was still in effect then the home nation corps couldn't move because the game got confused with the Turkish corps in the Upper Nile area. How no-one noticed this in play testing is beyond belief. Unless, of course, no-one playtested in solo play.

When 1.01 came along a similar problem happened when Fr gained control of Sweden and dropped the Swedish corps in Dublin & Glasgow, the corps became stuck. I know this wan't playtested as we, as paying customers, were asked to playtest the patch oruselves.

Also in 1.01 random surrenders would occur. As France I has Austria surrender to me unconditionally 3 times in a row.

Anyone who can count to 20 without taking their shoes & socks off can easily see how all 3 of the above problems from official "stable" releases make the game unplayable. There were other problems, I'll dig out if you like.

The current Beta allows fleets who are blockaded by only minor fleets to intercept & fleets in BBs to intercept. This isn't even on Marshall's "to fix" list, so the next "stable" release will include a major bug if not addressed.

People who say "I can play the game alright" are making allowances for the bugs & making work arounds. This is the same as buying a car which won't turn left & making circuitous journeys involving right hand turns & saying "It's OK, I can manage"

ADG apparently playtested the game & said it's fine to release. Conflict of interest not withstanding, don't you think you should have got an opinion from someone who wans't going to make $$$ on the release.

The playtesters you had were people who were desperate to get hold of a finished product regardless of & would be happy to OK a bugy version so they could get on & paly the game "for real". Some of them even eulogized over the Graphics, as if that is a big thing for a game like this, it's not - playability is.

Don't get playtesters who have conflicted interests of sycophantic Matrix fans, get aggressive players who are cynical & will push the game to it's limits in an attempt to prove it doesn't work.

Take a leaf out of Jagex' game design. When they started Runescape all those years ago the graphics were a minor concern, basic playability was thir foundation and they built up from there.

I don't want this product to fail & would like to actually play this through without having some frustration based on bad programming/testing ruin it. However, with the current development/testing stragegy that is more akin to damage limitation rather then true development.

(in reply to TheHellPatrol)

Post #: 22

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/20/2008 2:45:55 AM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

When all is said and done sometime next year after WiF is released and EiA is "fixed", I'm sure there will be some lessons learned for how to do a board game adaptation. It looks like WiF is doing things right, whereas EiA is what it is. I'm not exactly happy about the current state of affairs with EiA, but I'm willing to be patient while things get worked out. And I am optimistic that they will eventually all get worked out.

That said, I should also say Matrix could have considered some alternative sales plan for a product like this. Technically it was "playable" and the AI was functional, but there were far too many unresolved issues and unfinished features to warrant a premium price tag upon release. Maybe sell something like this as a public beta for reduced price? At least have an open beta period for more playtesters than they did. Despite the issues, we do have the product in hand and can help work through the issues. For those of us willing to help.

I still cannot accept complaints from players who supposedly monitored these forums for the past few years and must have been aware of the issues involved. And even after release, having seen the various forum comments and game reviews, there is zero excuse for buying the product and then expecting it to be perfect, despite all the comments to the contrary. It's not like there are many casual players who accidently stumble upon a game like this and shell out top dollar without so much as a clue what they're buying. I got no sympathy. Caveat Emptor.

(in reply to borner)

Post #: 23

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/20/2008 7:29:09 PM

jnier

Posts: 402
Joined: 2/18/2002
Status: offline

The game does need work, but it's still quite playable and bottom line is that I have fun when I play it.

And those who are quick to complain should remember: We are lucky that anybody is willing to put this much time and effort into a product that will probably only be mariginally profitable. Matrix & Marshall could make a lot more money spending their time elsewhere, and we in the hobby are very lucky that they consider this game to be a labor of love, albeit a sometimes frustrating labor of love. Without them there would never be a computer version of EIA, and with time this will be a great game.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 24

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/20/2008 8:03:50 PM

MorningDew

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jnier

The game does need work, but it's still quite playable and bottom line is that I have fun when I play it.

And those who are quick to complain should remember: We are lucky that anybody is willing to put this much time and effort into a product that will probably only be mariginally profitable. Matrix & Marshall could make a lot more money spending their time elsewhere, and we in the hobby are very lucky that they consider this game to be a labor of love, albeit a sometimes frustrating labor of love. Without them there would never be a computer version of EIA, and with time this will be a great game.

Very, very well said. I did not own the boardgame, but I'm looking forward to playing this one. I purchased when it was first released, followed the boards and am slowly learning. I know soon we'll hit a point where I feel comfortable enough to play, but what I've found so far is that each time I run through the tutorial, I understand a little more.

I'm patient and excited about the future for this game and I'm happy to help contribute in a small monetary way to the hobby.

(in reply to jnier)

Post #: 25

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/21/2008 12:39:54 PM

Killerduck

Posts: 16
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline

As the game is, it is not very enjoyable. Bugs spoil multiplayer games and AI is nowhere near challenging for an experienced EiA player. All that said, I've played a full campaign through it several times

The game is playable and makes for a nice tutorial for newbies.

I have faith Matrix is going to update EiA several times (and I trust I will get an update with a scenario/board-editor, even if it takes years). They've done it with other games in the past.

Patience is a virtue (in EiA)

(in reply to MorningDew)

Post #: 26

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/21/2008 6:46:05 PM

Grapeshot Bob

Posts: 642
Joined: 12/16/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

Well, my feeling is that the game should have a reasonable AI at the very least.

If the game is for grognards to PBEM then it should be advertised as such.

The AI really is ok as a training aid but it really collapses as a challenging opponent.

It might make sense to have several overall strategies for each power. The computer would pick one strategy at random and concentrate on that strategy. The AI should be able to get around most problems with this because the AI will almost certainly be playing against a single human opponent. The AI would concentrate on filling an overall set of criteria with natural alliances forming and cooperating with one another.

Perhaps the AI version would only allow the human player to use one of the "real" major powers like France, Great Britain or Russia with the computer playing all the other countries.

Yes, this solution might violate the spirit of the human versus human version but it would go a long way to satisfy those newbies who never played the boardgame and don't give a flying damn about the boardgame.

The game would also benefit a great deal from having play glitches and bugs ironed out. Have we figured out how to combine allied fleets so we can replay Trafalgar yet? Trafalgar was kind of important.

GSB

(in reply to Killerduck)

Post #: 27

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/21/2008 7:06:40 PM

Ashtar

Posts: 160
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline

I am having a lot of fun playing this game pbem and I am very grateful to Matrix for bringing it together.

In the past I complained about some bugs, and especially about a certain lack of understanding of EIA basic
mechanics, but the game is getting better with every patch.

Bugs are being wiped out and rules are getting closer and closer to the desired state.
Yes, the interface is hard, but still playable, while I have no big hopes on AI, this game is too
complicated for having an AI able to compete with expert players.

Overall, it was well spent money (and I chose download plus physical shipping)

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)

Post #: 28

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/21/2008 10:23:34 PM

Marshall Ellis

Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

Hey guys:

I sincerely apologize for the frustrations! I can tell you that I will not stop improving this game and will ALWAYS listen to you what you have to say! I value your opinions and hate it when you're frustrated. You're my customer and want only for you to be satisfied! I will not stop until you are satisfied!

PLEASE don't give up yet!

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games

(in reply to Ashtar)

Post #: 29

RE: anyone else about read to give up?????? - 4/21/2008 10:33:52 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Allow me to second this. We realize a lot of you are not happy with how EIA is functioning right now. That will not remain the status quo if there's anything we can do about it. Marshall is working very hard to make the needed improvements and we will support him in every way we can.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)

Post #: 30

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Slitherine

anyone else about read to give up??????