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- 3/21/2002 7:55:52 PM

herr1

Posts: 34
Joined: 6/8/2000
From: Worcester, Worcestershire, UK
Status: offline

I for one have been very happy with the support form Matrix from the very beginning. I was first put on to SPWAW by Paul a long while ago when he answered my email about SPWW2 and poor video quality.

I have just started to order the mega campaigns from Duchet computers in the UK who only charge �1 for postage, so to echo Pauls comments from earlier look for your 'local' dealer and support matrix!

I too am looking forward to SPWAW 7.1, the ultimate SPWAW. However, I wish most of you would bear in mind that the guy has a day job and needs earn money to feed the family!

So please all of you support Matrix by buying their products. They have given me many hours of free pleasure so far so its time to pay them back (and get a good MC in the bargain).

SWWAW 7.1 will be here if we give the guy space!

_____________________________

Dr Rob H

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 31

- 3/21/2002 8:42:26 PM

cadmus

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Columbia, MD
Status: offline

If you read Paul's post above very carefully, and think about it for a bit, one might conclude that we may be in serious danger of losing Matrix. The fact that the sales of the MCs is at half or less the anticipated (hoped for?) level might well lead Matrix to revise downward their forecasts for CL. If that happens, at what point do they conclude their business model is not going to work, and throw in the towel? I think they've kept going this long more on dedication, and perhaps, fanaticism, than a reasonable flow of revenue. They can't keep that up for long.

The only solution is sales ... sales! Kind words of support are nice, but if we're going to have Matrix around to feed our habits in the future, they must have sales. I urge all of you who have not bought anything from Matrix to do so as soon as you can. Buy the MCs for yourself. Buy them to give as gifts to friends who you might be able to seduce into joining our merry band. And they make very nice coasters ... better than AOL disks.

I know that many of the readers of this forum are students on very tight budgets. Others may be in a better position to spend a little money. I will volunteer to subsidize a reasonable number of MC purchases for legitimately strapped members of this community. Contact me via e-mail and we'll discuss it. Up to 10 before I cut it off.

I urge other financially solvent forum members make a similar offer.

And those of you not in the US who are put off by the shipping costs ... check again the vendors cited in earlier posts above.

It's sales, guys. Sales! And if we don't support Matrix in a tangible way now, I suspect they won't be around to produce version 3 of CL. Consider your life without Matrix and act!

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 32

- 3/21/2002 8:45:48 PM

robot

Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline

I play 7.0 have for some time. No problem playing. Have gotten oobs from member of this board. Who by the way let me call him because i didnt want to mess up loading. Have found nothing but help from evryone here. I have not bought mega campaigns because i can not afford them. Not because i dont want to give my support. I believe matrix is a great group of people. They in my own mind have put out one dam good game. If 7.1 never comes out it will not ruin my enjoyment of this game. I am retired and live only on social security. Being one of the dumb ones who never cared about how i would make it . This game has taken me back in time. I live these battles. I am there on the field living and dying again. No other games are as realistic as this game. I have cryed when a tank or squad is lost. I shout with joy when a hard fought battle is won. All i can say is thanks go to all the members of matrix and to the other war gamers who inspired and dedicated so much time. Take your time and do what you can ill wait with no complaints.

_____________________________

Robots wear armor for skin.Grunts wear skin for armor.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 33

- 3/21/2002 8:48:58 PM

young turk

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/21/2002
From: istanbul, turkey
Status: offline

no offense intended, but the price of the MC's seems to high to me. I'd pay $20, but not $30.

I am actually a little surprised that they sold 3000+ copies. After all, they are add onns to a (necessarily) free game.

I understand the urge to plop down your cash to support Matrix, but it's a pretty rare business that makes money based upon a good hearted desire of their customers rather than a decision that the benefits of the product justify the cost.

Just my .02.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 34

- 3/21/2002 8:51:26 PM

AmmoSgt

Posts: 1002
Joined: 10/21/2000
From: Redstone Arsenal Al
Status: offline

I have bought every MC .. I don't play MC's ..in fact I have bought more than 1 of each .. they make great Gifts .. and occasionally I get a good opponent out of a gift of a MC ... Folks, I just lost my fav Lee-Enfield Collectors forum this week due to lack of support, it just shut down , and the guy who ran the Forum thanked the 1 person who bought the hat . I will be buying CL and other WW2 Games from Matrix .. Folks seem to worry about the cost of shipping or something ..consider the cost of losing Matrix .. dang it, BUY SOMETHING! Birthdays , Memorial Day, 4th of July, Christmas , any excuse .. Buy a copy for folks who have "Ideas" about how the War Aganist Terrorism should be fought, so they can discuss military stuff inteligently with you ..
As to some of the other issues .. I have never ever anywhere seen a game with the level of beginner support that this game has ..tutorials , Manuals, Forum, tactical tips, support sites .. I know that this doesn't put bread on the Matrix staffs table in every case .. but I think it would be good if some of the player created stuff could be seen as supporting Matrix and the Staffs efforts, hard to do when the wolf is at the door and MONEY is needed more than another player created scenario, . I know nothing replaces MONEY ..so BUY SOMETHING already.. no more excuses .. buy it as a gift if you must , dang it, just buy something.

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 35

- 3/21/2002 9:46:48 PM

Bing

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sg
[B]Well, I've been playing wargames for as long as I can remember ....Avalon Hill board games (Tactics II, Blitzkrieg, etc) and on the PC (Empire Deluxe is still a favorite). .....Steve. [/B][/QUOTE]

SG - SL and ASL maybe? You're maybe the second or third grog I've met who admits to starting with Tactics II - you're dating yourself, you know. I found Tactics II in 1958 and the rest, as they say (whoever "they" are) was history.

Did you play VG Pacific War; SSI PTO; SSI Empires of the Middle Ages? Flat Top? Command at Sea? Grigsby's Pacific War (computer) - Bond's Harpoon , paper or computer?

I literally wore out a few boards in SL, Flat top and a couple others. Pushing the cardboard over a period of time scrubbed the ink right off the paper lamination.

Remember the five and six hour setup times for the monster games? Then the cat got up on the table and walked thru the entire Pacific war. (I had to devise a series of cardboard boxes to put over the playing surface for when I wasn't there.)

Great times, they were. Made some fine friends back then.

Bing

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 36

- 3/21/2002 10:22:59 PM

mikel

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

This is not the sort of discussion I envisioned for my first post but I thought that you might want to hear from a newbie. I am not a �serious � wargamer, don�t know a great deal about weapons and tactics, and I make the computer opponent look like a genius. However, I find SPWAW fascinating, have purchased all 3 MC�s, (am trying to slog thru MCNA) and I very much hope that Matrix succeeds. After following the discussions on this forum for a while, my observations on this thread are (for what they�re worth):

1. Matrix support (both official and unofficial) is superb. I am amazed at the amount of help that is available, the many free scenarios, and the generally positive tone of the discussion. For example, I stumbled across the MCNA �dumb leader� problem (I first thought it was due to my less-than-inspiring leadership!), found a thread that offered a solution by �Anthony� (to whom I will be eternally grateful), got and installed his patch thru email all in the same day. And it worked!

However, this great strength of Matrix is also a potentially lethal weakness if their desire is to significantly increase participation. Dedicated fans and volunteers (who are critical to success) often feel they have earned significantly more �ownership� than newbies. A newbies place is to be praise Matrix, ask for help, and NEVER offer anything that could be interpreted as negative or even knowledgeable. If they do not follow these unstated rules then they will be severely chastened by a large number of active veterans. Sometimes the newbie deserves it but often it is little more than sending a message that you are not �one of the guys� so butt out. And they probably do. Based on the horror stories I�ve heard about other forums, Matrix veterans seem far better than most. But the sense of �you don�t really belong� is there.

2. The Matrix economic model may not work because they appear extremely stretched but that may be the only hope for getting the volume they need to survive so they might as well try it. However, as a former business owner, my experience is that you are far more likely to over-reach than under-reach. Don�t under-estimate the cost of complexity (and each new game adds to that complexity). The risk is burn-out among your critical core force and errors that drive your customers away. And yes, demand is almost unlimited for anything that�s �free� but can completely dry up when even a small charge is made. That�s life.

3. There is a difference in the level of support necessary for a free product versus one where you have charged $20-30. No one should complain about the support for SPWAW, WIR, or PacWar because they are free. However, the MC�s are completely different. The MCNA leader fix is a good example. �Anthony� has a fix, but it�s unofficial, and does not appear that Matrix is making the fix widely known and available. It should. Also, the LV problems appear far more severe (maybe even unplayable). I almost get the impression in this thread that the MC�s are associated with SPWAW and therefore don�t deserve official support because SPWAW is free and Matrix needs to move on to CL. If true, that would be a big mistake because the MC�s represent Matrix first real products and should not be abandoned (before important problems are fixed in a timely matter) just because they are sucking up resources. I would be willing to bet that the length of time that the LV problem has remained unresolved has already driven away some customers and reduced enthusiasm among others.

I�ve already said more than I intended so let me end by saying thanks to everyone who has worked hard to make Matrix a success. I certainly hope you succeed.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 37

- 3/21/2002 10:52:12 PM

Grenadier

Posts: 981
Joined: 5/10/2000
From: Newport Beach, CA USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by young turk
[B]no offense intended, but the price of the MC's seems to high to me. I'd pay $20, but not $30.

I am actually a little surprised that they sold 3000+ copies. After all, they are add onns to a (necessarily) free game.

I understand the urge to plop down your cash to support Matrix, but it's a pretty rare business that makes money based upon a good hearted desire of their customers rather than a decision that the benefits of the product justify the cost.

Just my .02. [/B][/QUOTE]

Have you even looked at one? Have any idea what is included? To get the photos included in Lost Victories alone you will pay 40-50.00 dollars for a photo book. To get the wealth of information in the documents and historical detail alone you would pay about 50.-100.00 for the books. I have included whole sections from books long out of print, such as Curzio Malapartes-Kaputt and The Volga Rises in Europe and Paul Carell Unterhemen Barbarossa(Hitler Moves East) as well as many pages from Col Davis Glant'z out of Print "THe Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front" symposium study. There are also authentic German OKW commique recordings with english translations and a whole collection of German Army war songs and marching songs. Try finding a CD of those for 20.00

Your attitude is reflective of what is wrong with giving away SPWaW. When you get something for free you don't think very much of it and take it for granted and then anything else is considered not worthy enough because it is related to the free product.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 38

- 3/21/2002 11:17:58 PM

cadmus

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: Columbia, MD
Status: offline

Mikel ...

If there were an Oscar for "Best First Post", you'd get it! Nicely reasoned. Nicely put. Hope we hear more from you.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 39

- 3/22/2002 12:22:56 AM

kshinner

Posts: 58
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: Livonia, MI
Status: offline

The day after I first saw SPW@W I thought, "Man, what a great dream I had last night. Someone took a great game and made it just about everything I could have wanted ... for FREE! Weird!" Love the game, love the MCs.

Support for the game and the Forum have been top notch.

Unfortunately for Matrix, they're in a unfavorable economic situation, seems to me. You've given me the cake for free (SPW@W) and asked me to pay for the icing (MCs). Which I have, all three. I even bought some other game from Matrix I doubt I'll even play. However, It's a risky thing to rely on the kindness of strangers... Top that off with the fact you're in a genre that caters to a small niche of the computer gaming population. Let's face it, you can entice a lot more people with a first-person shooter than you can with a detailed, realistic war sim.

I'm as anxious as anyone to get 7.1. I'm just praying that it actually DOES solve my MCNA lost leaders problem. So, in the spirit of walking the talk. I'll volunteer to run version 7.1 through MCNA and report any problems.

1. Where do I get the latest 7.1?

2. I thought there were OOB updates to 7.1 that haven't been completely settled on and I understand that my lost leaders issue has something to do with OOBs versus version. Where do I get the OOB that is intended to be put out with version 7.1 and intended to work with MCNA?

3. Who do I tell when/if I have issues with MCNA and version 7.1?

_____________________________

"We got our own ammuninition - it's filled with paint. When we fire it...it makes pretty pictures - scares the hell outta people." - Oddball

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 40

My turn - 3/22/2002 12:56:35 AM

Grimm

Posts: 126
Joined: 7/10/2000
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Status: offline

I have purchased two of the three MCs. Not because I will play them much but because I wanted to support Matrix. I play mostly PBEM games. Maybe someday I will find the time to get past the first scenario. :D

My biggest concern with Matrix is with its lack of effective marketing. I am a subscriber to Computer Gaming World and while its more of a shooter's magazine they do cover some wargames. Matrix's name is almost impossible to find in any given issue. They even had an article a few months back about "great wargames" and SPWaW wasn't even mentioned. Is suspect the majority of the purchasers of the MCs are all members of this forum because nobdy else knows that they exist! It doesn't matter how great the product is if nobody knows that it exists.

Stepping down from soapbox.... :rolleyes:

_____________________________

Its what you do
and not what you say
If you're not part of the future
then get out of the way

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 41

- 3/22/2002 1:02:07 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

mikel:

quote:

I would be willing to bet that the length of time that the LV problem has remained unresolved has already driven away some customers and reduced enthusiasm among others.

You've noted a number of turn-offs that you've encountered. Also consider some of the comments which are pretty disturbing to me, such as the notion that we're to buy things we don't want in order to finance things we might want. If this were strictly a matter of charity, it makes more sense to give money than to buy something you have no use for. Buy things you have no use for, and guess what, you'll end up sending the message that you like, what you do not. If Close Assault doesn't sell a lick, and Combat Leader does, guess which one will be around longer? Like some have stated here, I bought MCNA not only to 'payback' for SPWAW, but also a hard copy of one version of SPWAW.

In my mind, with the 2002 en masse binge of credible wargames, mostly due it seems to 2X3 and Matrix, the sense in buying something I don't like, in may case like AmmoSgt's, the matter of buying MCs makes even less sense. While at present, I can afford to buy plenty of games, I can't stand kicking myself because I have more games than I can play, alongside making matters worse in buying things I don't want to play from the start. I know there's quite a few who seem to like MCs, but if SPWAW or CL, were nothing but an MC experience, the death of wargaming would come none too quick for me.

I just find it very peculiar that buying something you don't want is supposed to finance something you do. I can just see Barbie movies being made right and left, for all of those who thought without any Barbie movies to see, that going to see LOTR would accomplish their desires. Or to put it more contemporarily, that trash movies will quit being made when we continue to put money into movies which "aren't that bad". If you put your effort and money into anything but what you want, you're pretty assured of not getting it. I've had this same sort of discussion with people who preferred Howard Phillips to Bush, but voted for Bush anyway, for all the good it did.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 42

- 3/22/2002 2:23:56 AM

Godzilla Blitz

Posts: 8
Joined: 3/19/2002
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikel
[B]
2. The Matrix economic model may not work because they appear extremely stretched but that may be the only hope for getting the volume they need to survive so they might as well try it. However, as a former business owner, my experience is that you are far more likely to over-reach than under-reach. Don�t under-estimate the cost of complexity (and each new game adds to that complexity). The risk is burn-out among your critical core force and errors that drive your customers away. And yes, demand is almost unlimited for anything that�s �free� but can completely dry up when even a small charge is made. That�s life.

3. I would be willing to bet that the length of time that the LV problem has remained unresolved has already driven away some customers and reduced enthusiasm among others. [/B][/QUOTE]

Mikel: Excellent comments!

I did want to add a couple of comments/additions to this post. This may seem like criticism, but my intent is to offer it as food for thought in the hopes it may help.

1. I just discovered Matrix from the PC Gamer magazine article on the Master Campaigns. Having played Steel Panthers before, I was familiar with the game, and was excited to learn that there was a free download available that updated and expanded upon the original game. However, the thing that got me really excited was that there were Master Campaigns available which greatly expanded the campaign concept of the original game. I enjoyed the campaigns in the original version(s) of the game, but always felt they were lacking in many regards. After reading the PC Gamer magazine, I came here looking to buy one right away and give it a try. I would think that there have been many others just like me over the past few days.

2. I checked out info on the three campaigns, and discounted the Pacific one because I wanted an emphasis on armored combat. That left North Africa or Russia. I asked a question on the boards here and was told that either is fine, but that I might want to start with North Africa. I went back to order the game, but it was out of stock. Ok, I think, no problem, I'll just get the Russian one. At $25 they aren't expensive, and even if I hate the game, it's not that big of a deal. I started to place my order and hit the "estimate shipping" button: the cheapest option for shipping to Minnesota was $10! Yikes! My reaction was that this was a bit steep for priority mail, and now I was looking at a $35 purchase. I realize it's not that big of a difference, but $35 is what I usually pay for new releases of games that I know I want, and I in such cases I always like to have a pretty good idea that it is going to be something I like and something that will run with relatively few bugs. So I went back to the boards, and read a bit more about the Russian Front MC.

3. Very quickly it became apparent that there was a problem with the campaign's compatability with SPWaW 7.0, and that experienced players were waiting for a 7.1 patch. I've had some negative experiences lately with games that had show-stopping bugs, and so the economic decision for me, as a first-time potential customer, was to wait. The product I wanted was not available in one case and not available in a sufficiently stable format in the other case. The point I would like to make is that I went from a "definite buy" to a "waiting to buy". I wonder how many others have done the same thing over the past few days, and how many won't come back: a potential customer's attention span is often equal to that of a two-year-old.

Along those lines, I would humbly offer the following for thought:

1. While you have this major free advertising (the PC Gamer article) that will bring in a lot of new hits to your site, I think you would benefit greatly by having the products available for purchase and taking care of the issues to make sure that the customers will be satisfied (i.e. the patch for 7.1). I had never heard of your company before and never heard of your games before, and I came hear to spend money. I bookmarked you website. If my experiences with the MC's are positive, I could see myself buying all your games. I bet there will be a slew of similar potential customers over the next month. But they won't wait forever. This is a golden chance that may not come by again.

2. It's a very minor thing, but I would suggest that you consider modifying the game price for the MC's to $29.99, and bring the shipping cost down to a figure comparable to other commercial websites. The current setup smells a bit of bait-and-switch: offer the game cheap but jack the shipping cost. The total would be the same, but the experience is different.

3. I would have bought a three-pack if the price was right. A buy-two-get-one free deal would have gotten you $50 of my money instead of none so far. Especially if your shipping cost format makes it more conducive to buying more than one product at a time.

4. Even though you can't charge for Steel Panthers, could you charge for shipping the game? Or put MC demos on the disk and charge shipping for the demo disk that just happens to include the full version of SPWaW? From a business perspective, I would think that you have a lot of expense with providing SPWaW for free, even though it is a critical component of your MC business. Although I was glad to be able to download the 600mb of stuff for nothing, I would much rather have paid you $10 to ship it out to me. SPWaW in a neat CD case with demos of the three campaigns, shipped to my door for $10 would have been a no brainer for me. Maybe you could even include a free shipping coupon or a $5-off coupon in the package to entice customers to keep buying.

Again, I don't mean to be critical of what is obviously a dedicated effort to produce outstanding products. But I do think that most all of your new potential customers come here thinking to buy a game from a "Company", and will leave if the product isn't available or doesn't appear to work correctly. They won't give a second thought as to whether you do this in your free time or whether you do this 100 hours a week: as cold as it sounds they just don't care. Having the product ready for them would bring you a lot closer to the 7,000 mark you speak of.

I wish Matrix games the best of success, and look forward to becoming a dedicated customer.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 43

- 3/22/2002 3:19:08 AM

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Brick, N.J.
Status: offline

Bing,

If I'm dating myself, you just about put one foot in the grave by admitting you found Tactics II in [I]1958[/I] !! I came across it around '76, 11 yrs old. Never got really heavy into SL/ASL or the others you mentioned, usually do to the lack of competent/willing opponents. Still own my original copies though. I also had a cat, but he didn't knock over the boards as much as he liked to chew on the pieces!! Still got the teeth marks. My mom was always a terror with the vacuum, had to sift through the dirt bag many times to find missing units. Game I played the most as a kid though was chess, the granddaddy of all strategy games. It came naturally to me at 5 yrs old (pop tought me). Beat my uncles pants off in front of the whole family once when I was 7 and he refuses to play me to this day. Always liked Risk and Stratego too. On the PC I was into Harpoon for a while, but mostly I would play just about anything I could get my hands on. Don't play any RTS anymore (reflexes ain't what the used to be and I'd have to upgrade my pc every 6 weeks to keep up with the hardware demands). I still do fire up Empire Deluxe...something about it is kind of addicting. But no game has kindled or kept my interest like SPWaW has. Well enough of this history lesson...I have to go now and look up my childhood buddy and see if he's up for a Tactics II beating.

Steve.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 44

- 3/22/2002 4:43:49 AM

Skotty

Posts: 83
Joined: 7/18/2000
From: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: offline

Well, I bought the MCDF when it came out and just ordered the other 2 MC's and a LV T-shirt to go with MCDF T-shirt. I also donated another $40 bucks to Wargamer.com cuz the host SPCAMO. I have almost exclusively played SP over the past year and have been playing all versions off and on since SP1 came out in late 95. I am a strong supporter of whole SP community and for the past 3 years to SP series have been updated for free. This is the least I can do to support this community.
I do have too many PC games to play, but I am happy that I do.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 45

- 3/22/2002 8:29:25 AM

David Heath

Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline

Hi Guys

Let me jump in hear. Matrix Games does not want you to give us money. We also are not over expanded in projects. Matrix staff is work on Combat Leader, War in the Pacific ( with 2by3 ) and Battleline. All of our other projects are outside developers.

Paul made one mistake in his post, we had over 115,000+ downloads as of LAST Jan 2001, and this just from our web site. This is not counting other download sites or mags. When you look at the sales that is what is hurting. We figured we make some money to fund Combat Leader and it really has not happened.

Look at what we have done. Online ordering, toll free ordering, phone support for lost orders, My Order Status for tracking your orders, a greatly expanded network with expand speed and of course our active forums. This is not to say we do not make mistakes ( God knows we do ) but what other wargame company is giving this type of support. Its not just us take a look at the Wargamer reduced to request money or closed down. Mario is correct it should be funded by the gamers.

All the game companies have been chatting and it really is starting not to pay to do this. If the best we can sell is 1,000 copies of a newly designed wargame that pretty much will place the writing on the wall. I am not that old but I remember when the board games started to disappear and computer wargamering maybe heading in that direction.

Guys the fact is this we love doing this we are not out yet. We are not happy with the results and as we learn we change what we are doing. A lot of what you read is us being working to hard, under paid and really tired.

We are doing our best and trying to improve everyday and we hope that is what comes through. If you like what you tell a friend and keep the comments coming.

David

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 46

- 3/22/2002 10:57:50 AM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

Please dont take what I say the wrong way, in no way do I want to seem like a "know it all". I play a wide variety of games and follow the games market as a whole maybe a little more widely than alot of ppl on this forum.

The financial problems faced by MatrixGames are not rare. The PC games market as a whole is not extremly profitable. Dozens of games are cancelled ecah month because of lack of funds by its parent company. Several game companies are shut down every month because of money problems. Pc Games sell far less than console games and always have been. PC gamers as a whole are a far niche albeit dedicated crowd than Sonys or Nintendos average fan. Ill admit I play and enjoy Console games but I own far more PC games than console games.

For comparison Ill use a PC game and a console games to compare sales. (I work at a software store so I know these numbers to be at least in the ballpark).
Ill use Ghost Recon for the PC
And Ill use Grand Theft Auto 3 for the Playstation 2
Both came out at roughly the same time
Now Ghost Recon has sold around 150,000 copies
GTA 2 on the other hand has sold a whopping 2,000,000 copies

Now these are some of the more popular games for their respective systems. You can use this model for gaming as a whole PC gaming has as high of an overhead as most console games makers. Its easy to see why the PC gaming market for all but the most mainstream games is drying up. PC games companies (Microsoft being the biggest) are focusing alot of their efforts on the Console market now.

_____________________________

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 47

- 3/22/2002 2:33:31 PM

skukko

Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

Hi :)

Yeah, 100 000 downloads :D That is almost all wargamers having their lines in use :D

Patience is what gets us diverted from other style of games. We can wait untill we have something that really 'rocks' in our mind. I have for example played quite big line of war-strategygames and only spwaw has taken bite of my heart. It is because of a game itself, - and yes second is community and last is this company behind it. I am eagerly waiting new games from matrix and someway or other I'll get them and edit them, I mean play them ;)

mosh

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 48

- 3/22/2002 6:34:08 PM

young turk

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/21/2002
From: istanbul, turkey
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Have you even looked at one? Have any idea what is included? To get the photos included in Lost Victories alone you will pay 40-50.00 dollars for a photo book. To get the wealth of information in the documents and historical detail alone you would pay about 50.-100.00 for the books. I have included whole sections from books long out of print, such as Curzio Malapartes-Kaputt and The Volga Rises in Europe and Paul Carell Unterhemen Barbarossa(Hitler Moves East) as well as many pages from Col Davis Glant'z out of Print "THe Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front" symposium study. There are also authentic German OKW commique recordings with english translations and a whole collection of German Army war songs and marching songs. Try finding a CD of those for 20.00 [/QUOTE]

Brent:

No, I haven't looked at one. As I said, for me, the addons cost too much. I fully believe that the items you mention are detailed and interesting, and they sound cool, but they are pretty hardcore. I, like most of the gaming public, have never read a book about WW2, and the items you mention dont prompt me to plop down my $30.

$30 is a lot for any add on. It's really a lot when the underlying game is free.

I assumed SPWAW was intended to introduce Matrix to the gaming community, not to make $. Thus, I was a little surprised by Paul's complaints about lackluster sales.

I think you guys do great work, and I am looking forward to your future games. I just think your pricing is a little, uh, overly ambitious. Mentioning $50 for Fortress Europe seems too easy, so I won't. :p

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 49

- 3/22/2002 8:44:05 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

For those you not around when the MC genesis occured, the whole rationale behind the MC's was as a means to finance the production of Combat Leader and to keep up support of SP:WaW.

Originally we were not going to start CL until we had sold 7000 MC's. The original response to the idea of CL was so enthusiastic we went ahead anyway naively thinking the support would be there. So far enough sales to basically keep us running have occured, but not enough to create the surplus we need to really push ahead the way we want. This affects all aspects of our operation.

The value in something is in its CONTENT not how much the things its associated with cost. The MCs contain at least as much info as a typical book on the subject that costs on the order of 25 to 30 bucks. Even if you never play the MC all the way through, the info more than justifies the price.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 50

- 3/22/2002 10:21:30 PM

Steve Wilcox

Posts: 103
Joined: 8/17/2001
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Status: offline

I just want to say that I've had more value from SPWAW, a free game, than any of the computer wargames I've paid money for (although Close Combat III comes close). Something being free does not necessarily mean it has no value. I bought MCLV and MCNA not because of the mega campaigns, but to pay back Matrix for the free game I got with PC Gamer magazine and to have a hardcopy of a more recent edition of SPWAW than the one on my free CD. If someone didn't like the game I can see not buying MCs, but for anyone who enjoyed SPWAW I figure it's a good way to show appreciation, unless poverty prevents it. While it's understandable that if someone is not interested in the MCs, they don't want to pay for something they don't want and I realize that postage is not cheap, to me it was worth it to get some support to Matrix, even with having to buy the MCs with Canadian dollars. Just my opinion. :-)

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 51

- 3/22/2002 10:30:17 PM

rlc27

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline

$30 is a lot for an add-on, yes if it is a Diablo II expansion pack that gives you two new characters and a new level; or even as far as wargames are concerned a Talonsoft expansion pack with 20 new scenarios for $25 is also a lot.

What has impressed me is, as Paul said, the amount of information that goes into each one, above and beyond the game itself--which contains something to the tune of 125 scenarios!

I see the MC's not simply as commodities I may or may not be interested in, but as a way to buy insurance that companies that (a) take the time to produce quality products and that (b) answer the needs of their customers. Some may argue that they see no need to purchase something they don't want; I agree with this perspective as long as we look solely at the product itself. But I find that looking at the wargaming hobby as a kind of "club" with certain dues that you should pay in order to keep it operating works for me. Matrix just happens to be the particular club branch I've joined, and I will continue to purchase their products despite the "hefty" price tag of $30 for those "add-on" Megacampaigns (Geee, I remember when computer games often cost $59.95!). I've played SPWAW enough that this is a small price to pay. If it were shareware I would have long ago plunked down my cash.

:)

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"

--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 52

- 3/22/2002 11:02:35 PM

Sgt Popov

Posts: 101
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Ga USA
Status: offline

I LOVE Matrixs devotion to SP, they have certainly given it a tremendous effort. I bought LV to help Matrix with CL and other games. I am an avid grog, and own probably every PC war game there is. I STILL play the hell out of SP. Theres nothing like it . As soon as the bugs are worked out of the other MCs, I will buy them too. Economic reality is, well, economic reality- I will support Matrix as much as I can. No other game has provided hours (1000s) of playtime as SPWaW. Thanks, guys, and keep your chin up!:) I am waiting on Close Assault, too.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 53

- 3/22/2002 11:07:35 PM

skukko

Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

Its done :D

Cook up coffee, beg David, Paul and Brent to set it out, and start waiting (oops; continue )... :D

mosh

Attachment (1)

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 54

- 3/23/2002 1:23:04 AM

Charles2222

Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline

Paul Vebber: What if someone has no desire to read those books? In my case, I do not, and reading them on the computer would be even more undesireable. It's true, they're probably good books, but there's slews of them at the stores that I might have interest in which I totally ignore. I have a sufficient library at home to cover WWII (maybe between 20-50 titles), and the internet making some books available makes the value perhaps worth, less still. I also had no idea that there was copious reading material with the MC I did buy (and still don't know that to be true - MCNA), and given how whether there's a book on the cd, went completely unnoticed by me, probably had something to do with no desire to buy reading material alongside a computer game. Admittadly, if I were another 20 years younger and didn't have but one or two WWII books I'd probably go ape over the books on it, so it's not likes it's futile putting them on there, though be it because I don't care iof there's a book on there or not, I never did realize there was one before I purchased the MC. So there's value in books for some, and not for others.

I hope the stymied sales for the MCs are truly made up in CL, and I expect they will. Unfortunately in this case, as I see it, the MCs are the dying embers of a quite old and free product, and like it or not if the product differs little from it's parent and is charging close to new games prices, then people are likely to save it for CL and other titles.

I don't know if people operate so much like I do, I doubt it, but I'll only buy so many titles in a given period. I don't care if there's 10 WIRs available at the same time, I'm likely to buy only 1, or 2 at most. I recall back when WIR was new, there were at least 2 or 3 East Front strategic games out and I ignored them for what I took was the best translation, and I proved to have made the right decision.

In the case of 2002 games, or thereabouts, I'm likely to purchase UV, WITP, CL, CA (maybe), the 2X3 Russian Front game, and maybe 1 other title, as far as wragames go anyway. If I bought all the MCs, and I liked them, I'd be very unlikely to feast so much on these other titles. The ONLY BOOK I'd consider wanting with any of these games, and you could jack the price on any of them up $20 more and I'd buy it, would be real hardcopy game manuals with some keen statistics and what not. The last game I've played that had that kind of book, was from BTR. Unfortunately they were lame enough just to give me stats on the Allied planes and not the GE stuff, but a good REAL hearty book nonetheless. Hint: I don't have a computer monitor in my restroom:D

Have an idea here, and maybe it's way too dangerous and radical, but if you read all this thread you know in my case I have no interest in MCs in and of themelves, but isn't there other ways to bag my dough? What IF, IF Matrix started offering CL, UV, WITP and other t-shirts etc, NOW? T-shirts are something I don't have enough of (I did buy the MCNA one BTW), but then maybe people are more book-on-cd people than t-shirt people. Oh well, but it would be sort of a kick to have a t-shirt for a game which may not even see the light of day, and in any case to have it before the game is out.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 55

- 3/23/2002 2:07:53 AM

Mark Ezra

Posts: 340
Joined: 12/29/2000
From: Jasmin Ranch, Acton CA
Status: offline

I buy Matrix products. I buy them because the've been made with me in mind. I ask you to buy them, too. Don't let the cost of mail and all the other reasons ,both real and imagined, stop you. Wargames market is a niche of a niche market. Without your financial backing companies will simply die out and our hobbie will, too. Don't be a summer soldier! Put your money where your mouth is. 110,000 dl's and I buy almost all the Matrix titles and these guys can't pay the rent!? It's time for YOU to do something.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 56

2 Cents more - 3/23/2002 2:28:05 AM

Akmatov

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline

I really don't care much for the argument that SPWAW is now an aging product, maybe because the same argument could be made about myself - now that's a stream of consciousness thought :). The game is damned good and as far as I know has never been bettered, except by it's own continual improvement. Not only is the base game excellent, but the tools are provided to modify it to suit the beliefs/preferences of the users. I came back to SPWAW after a long involuntary absence - school and what my daughter calls 'domestic drama', and was startled to find a very different game underneath the outer skin. For one thing, infantry is now something more than just a target, they can bite - hard. This moves SP from a semi-arcade game to something much more like a truish simulation of the reality - exactly what I want.

The MCs provide the buyer with three worthwhile things: 1) CD copy of the latest version of SPWAW, 2) lots of documentation, period atmosphere & goodies, 3) a HUGE Kick-*** branching campaign. And all this for $25!!! That is about what it costs for one person to eat at Red Lobster or for two tickets to a two hour first run movie. And this is called expensive?! One run of a MC is enough to keep most of us busy for a month or two and then it can be replayed to check out some of the other branches. Once again, expensive?! Huh?

I really don't understand the constant market for new and different, but not improved. The team at Matrix has incrementally improved SP to SPWAW and beyond for FREE. Now that the basic game is so very, very good purchase of MCs to drive it around in makes perfect sense. Well, to me anyway. Sigh, rant is ending.

BTB, just a thought. Paul and David mention download numbers from 70 - 115,000 for SPWAW and seem to assume that each individual download represents one person, rather than one person downloading several times. Lets see: SPWAW 5.01 Complete Game + Upgrade 5.01 -> 5.2 + Upgrade 5.2 -> 6.1 + Upgrade 6.1 -> 7.0 + Upgrade 7.0 -> 7.1beta + Sound Upgrade = 7 downloads just to be a copy of SPWAW that is fully up-to-date. And that is not counting poeple who have had to reinstall the game and were not able to archive almost 700 MB of files. Still even if there are only 10 - 15,000 individuals who downloaded SPWAW and only around 1000 or 10% purchased the MCs, that is pretty poor support.

I have MC-NA and get my *** kicked regularly. Frankly, I'm currently playing a long WWII Campaign with quasi-realisticly emhanced German weapons release dates (stuff they could have produced sooner if they had had Speer in control sooner and had bothered to sooner) plus stripped down modern Soviet style three subunit platoons. See, I told you I loved the tools.:) I will be ordering MC-LV as soon as it works all the way through, I really don't have the time to play it part way through then patch then restart. MC-Wt really isn't my cup of tea, but I will be getting it eventually - some of us do have to budget our fun - sigh.

Regarding any lack of interest displayed in CL, I've kind of been staying away because until recently I didn't have a computer that would handle the requirement. Now I'm kind of not wanting to drool too much in public over something that is fairly far off in the distance. Also what I particularly like about CL is the fact that it can handle modern combat!!!! And that isn't going to be until long after the initial release :(. Panters and Tigers and Crusaders are fun, but it has been a long streach without a good game with Abrams, Scorpions and T-62s, not to mention Cobras and Apaches and Hinds. Drool, drool.

Well, off to the CL forum.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 57

- 3/23/2002 2:53:09 AM

AJH

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/13/2000
From: boston, MA
Status: offline

It never ceases to amaze me that mcuh of the gaming public that indulges in wargaming will vociferously beef about laying out $20-30, holding the product to the highest nit-picking scrutiny, then promptly rush out and lay down $40, 50 or even $60 on the latest D&D retread or Diablo XXV or Command & Conquer V....to those who do not see the value in 'add-ons' because "like most of the gaming public I have never read a book on WWII", isn't that precisely the point for some for the add-on? Giving those who may not have been introduced to the background of the simulation they're playing is a great way to introduce new gamers to the topic, and maybe hook them into being future gamers, unlike 'most of the gaming public'. To those who can remember board wargaming, the historical and designer's notes added value to the product. No diferent here, except instead of pure text we get an admirable combination of text, video and audio.

Would clipping this from the product and the $5-10 it adds to the price convince more of you to buy? I'm skeptical that this is really about the purchase price; most gamers I've known with no interest in the history behind the game are normally casual and fleeting visitors to the wargaming genre. One wonders if SPWAW wasn't free, how much discussion this topic would really elicit. If you feel guilty about being a free rider please don't rationalize to some excuse. Simply state you were attracted because you didn't have to pony up cash, and future support for SPWAW won't be forthcoming if you have to spend money.

Matrix should be listened to carefully regarding the demise of the genre..I saw this happen once before with SPI, again with Avalon Hill, and now perhaps with PC gaming. Only our $$ support will keep what is already a sick state in any health at all.

For the record I bought all 3 MCs.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 58

Re Shipping Cost - 3/23/2002 2:56:48 AM

Akmatov

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Status: offline

Mark

I was inclinded to respond negitively to your comment about people disregarding the shipping cost and supporting Matrix as shipping oversea is basically highway robbery. However, I went to the Matrix order site and was very impressed with the options available.

The shipping cost for one MC to Germany is:
Civilian
$43 - 47 - UPS
$25 - FedEx
$30 - 13 - USPS (I'm sure the $13 postage gets the package
strapped to a sea turtle plodding in a generally
easterly direction and take a month or more -
no delivery dates listed)

APO
$30 - 13 - USPS

The same one MC to Arizona costs:
$9 - 29 - UPS
$11- 16 - FedEx
$20 - USPS

I see you guys at Matrix have found a way, the USPS of all things, to get packages to Europe for only 144% the shipping cost to addresses inside the States. Of course, plus whatever customs duties apply, which used to be steep before the EU - don't know about now.

I remember the many sad messages from Europe about the shippings costs. Good Job Guys!

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 59

- 3/23/2002 3:47:55 AM

scimitar

Posts: 301
Joined: 8/22/2001
From: Belgium
Status: offline

I agree with your comments, Akhmatov. The solution for some Europeans is to buy the Matrixgames products at resellers like Duchet (for UK, France, Belgium...), or Roland Rahn (Germany only). The games so bought are costing more than at Matrix shop, but this fact is compensed by the low P&P costs! That would say a game ordered to an European reseller is cheaper than if you order directly to the States. Honestly I must say that I can't certify that it's the truth for all the European countries (like Spain, or Finland...)
So, when Combat Leader will be available, I will buy it via Duchet.
But I think that to find resellers all over the world can be a solution for Matrixgames: local resellers with low P&P costs can help to diffuse Matrixgames products.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 60