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Just wondering about the facts (posted this in General ... - 3/24/2002 2:04:54 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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Mentioned I would post it in the open and this is it.

Matrix we need to stand up and be counted in many ways.

How about a survey that we can all fill out.

A comprehensive listing of what we play why we play it what we like what we hate what we want what we dont want.

Some cold hard facts as it were.

In that way we can see how many are known to be playing what, and what we have no interest in playing.

I am a Steel Panthers player, but why settle for just it. The site obviously hosts many games. I am sure this must have occurred to others but I have not seen it yet myself.

If Matrix truely wants to make money this would be a good way to find out who is going to give it to ya and for what.

In that way we can edit out the fond fuzzy comments and settle for cold harsh realities.

If personally requested i might take a stab at making your form to fill out. But I know next to nothing beyond typing on my word processor eh. but I have a lot of time and would do it just cause I might like to help. ASssuming that this notion means didly to anyone.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

Post #: 1

- 3/24/2002 6:25:26 AM

Bernie

Posts: 1779
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From: Depot HQ - Virginia
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The problem with your idea Les is that the only replies you'll get in the forums are from the hard core players who came here looking for others to exchange messages with, and not your average software buyer out with their friends in the mall. For any software company to truly do well they must sell to the mass market, not just a hard core group. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but not many, and usually the costs of their products are extremely high because they sell so few units.

Consider us to be a group of professionals, in a professional forum, much akin to a group of art professionals in an Adobe forum. Sure, your professional graphic artist will pay for professional grade software, but the average computer user doesn't need or want something that expensive or complicated.

Where Matrix needs to focus is on games for the mass market, maybe first person shooters or something like that. Only with the kind of profit base that can build will they be able to devote the time and resources to turning out the professional level products we in these forums want, at a price we can afford.

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Post #: 2

- 3/24/2002 7:55:09 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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You have a valid point.

To see some of the posts though I guess you and I might be some manner of incredibly heretical ingrates heheh.

To assume that Matrix needs to produce mass market software to be a real company, or accept that they cant get to fiddle with pet projects eh.

A lot of guys post messages that seem to lack an understanding of the brutal realities of business though.

I for one dont expect Matrix to spend more effort on me and my interests than are commercially logical. And if my interests have no commercial worth, then tough luck for me.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 3

- 3/24/2002 9:47:04 PM

Bing

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
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Bernie makes a truly important point: Adobe does a great job of milking its customer base. Photoshop complete (not the limited version for digital camera users) runs you over $500. Well, then you need Illustrator - another $300.+ - then you need ... the list goes on and on. Adobe doesn't stop there, they make sure "upgrades" are released in a never ending stream, so they can get a couple hundred more out of the pro user every year.

Adobe have achieved the seemingly impossible, topping even (I think) the marketing coup of putting plain water in a bottle and charging for it. Adobe Acrobat produces obscenely bloated files, won't work in anything but an Adobe Acrobat reader and if you want to CREATE .pdf files it will cost you $200.+ - for what, for gosh sake?

The TechTV nerd says it makes certain that the file, with graphics, will look the same on everyone's computer. You mean a WinWord doc file won't look the same? And won't be locked? And won't be 2 Megs in size when it only needs to be a couple hundred K's? You can get a WinWord reader also for free. Somebody got to him, too, it seems.

User support? I get nothing from Adobe, usualiy not even a notice of a version patch to correct something slightly wrong with Photoshop - Adobe have as much money as anyone and can't even produce a registered user's newsletter than means anything - why should they spend the money?

There are enough Photoshop fanatics out there that will create websites on their own and do the job Adobe ought to be doing. Mostly it is the graphics pros that maintain the websites - and the content you can download from them is often superior to anything Adobe offers.

Now, I know Matrix cannot charge $500. for WAW. The point is that being truly successful in the market means you are going to first capture your audience - viz Adobe and Microsoft - then make sure they can't go anywhere else. The truth is, there aren't enough bona fide wargamers to even make that possible. That is why despite having limited funds, I'll support Matrix.

Guys, we lose them it is gong to be a very long winter, so to speak. Wargaming as we know it won't ever die, you just might have to go to what amounts to a strictly fan-based operation to find it. Matrix needs, in effect, something similar to Castle Wolfenstein - then they could charge $50. for a "new" version and get away with it. Let's hope they find it.

Bing

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Post #: 4

- 3/24/2002 9:59:25 PM

AJH

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/13/2000
From: boston, MA
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Absolutely valid point, very economically sound, unfortunately. Les, it may not be that some consider you heretical, it may be that they despair of the true nature of the market.

What is true of computer wargaming is true of many other markets as well; romance novels and endless John Grisham garbage novels generally support military history works, or any other niche genre you care to name. Movies, video games, etc....(not true of restuarants, however).

What some may despair, as I do however briefly, is that the market 'dumbs down' quality for the sake of mass market sales, especially in democracies (where the mass is all there is). The day Matrix makes a first-person shooter, they lose my money permanantly. I've seen too many other companies (think of Talonsoft) use the argument that these types of games are necessary to support the other less profitable games only to completely abandon the 'other' (read wargames) games as soon as the 'shooters' took off in sales. I'll simply move my cash to the other naive start-up that thinks it can do without those types of games.

The brutal facts of the market are evident, but are not absolute (which is why economics is still considered a wannabe-science by true natural scientists, despite their status on CNN). The market is often irrational, and self-corrections can take a long, long time. Exceptions exist, and often thrive.

Mass markets for strategy games exist (Civilzation, Panzer General for example). A game along the lines of a Risk, Panzer General or Railroad Tycoon could do just as well saleswise to keep Matrix alive and still true to its mission. Difficult to be sure, but not impossible. Multi-Man Publishing will survive in the boardgaming market, although it is doubtful anyone there will become a multi-millionaire (except Curt Schilling, anyhow). The key is to expand the user-base (great idea from Matrix to give away SPWAW), and those who prefer shooters are not likely to be future wargamers. Strategy gamers however, might just be, and that is where wargaming can pile on additonal sales.

Your belief in capitalism (which I share) is admirable, but ignores the fact that the market will bear quality as well as pure quantity. Some of us (maybe not enough, granted) want something more than the dumbed-down standard product available from most gaming companies. Matrix may go down, but I'm prepared to support it (if the games are good) to give it a fighting chance.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 5

- 3/25/2002 4:28:13 AM

Bernie

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From: Depot HQ - Virginia
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I think, and I'm pretty sure Matrix agrees, that the success or failure of the upcoming CL is going to make/break Matrix. If it does well, the company will prosper and grow. If it does poorly, or is drastically flawed, Matrix may not be able to afford another effort, or the resources to fix it.

I think the absolute worst scenario we could see would be CL being rushed to market before it's been completely tested. I don't know how far along Matrix is with the game, but if I were in charge of the testing process I'd want a fairly large group of alpha testers (25-50 players) to pick the hell out of it, then release it to a larger base of beta testers (registered forum members) and let them do the same. At every stage I'd take what my testers told me as carved in stone and work hard to correct the problems.

I also feel the final product should be as flexible as possible, and be very open for future expansion. Want to play as a platoon leader, no problem! Want to play as theatre commander, also no problem! With a bit of foresight you could also play it as an FPS! I'd tend to go with a modular approach. Got a problem with firing routines? Rewrite that module rather than the entire game engine. We've all seen the limitations of SPWAW. Things that can't be fixed without a total rewrite. I'd want to ensure that didn't happen again with CL.

Okay, that's it for my ramblings on this subject for now. I just woke up and need my coffee! (Still home sick with that pesky flu...anyone got some M4A3 antibodies I can sic on these germs?)

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Post #: 6

- 3/25/2002 4:56:32 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
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Everyone so far has made some very, very valuable points. You're economic understanding of Matrixs' position is right on. I have 15 years experience in retail and Matrix would have been dead long ago had it relied on it's customer base, which is not giving Matrix enough support, ie; business. I worked for a company many years ago that great products, good prices, outstanding customer service(just like Matrix)-but it failed due to a lack of customers. It is darn time that every member find the money(a small amount IMHO) and purchase a MC. Do it quickly, before it is too late. I have shelled out thousands of dollars over the years on mass marketed games from numerous game makers. Most of those games held my attention about as long as watching grass growing would. So, here is another plea-if you have not bought a MC do so NOW NOW NOW. Or suffer the consequences of no Matrix and the end of the line for SPWAW and even CL.

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"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 7

- 3/25/2002 5:20:14 AM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by parusski
[B]Everyone so far has made some very, very valuable points. You're economic understanding of Matrixs' position is right on. I have 15 years experience in retail and Matrix would have been dead long ago had it relied on it's customer base, which is not giving Matrix enough support, ie; business. I worked for a company many years ago that great products, good prices, outstanding customer service(just like Matrix)-but it failed due to a lack of customers. It is darn time that every member find the money(a small amount IMHO) and purchase a MC. Do it quickly, before it is too late. I have shelled out thousands of dollars over the years on mass marketed games from numerous game makers. Most of those games held my attention about as long as watching grass growing would. So, here is another plea-if you have not bought a MC do so NOW NOW NOW. Or suffer the consequences of no Matrix and the end of the line for SPWAW and even CL. [/B][/QUOTE]

I too have been in retail for a number of years, most recently at the store manager level (was up for a district manager job with K-Mart but...) however, you're preaching to the choir here. The folks in these forums are already customers. What Matrix needs is new customers, and the only way to get those is with a new product on the shelf that grabs attention (and generates good press).

As for each of us buying an MC... Sure, it'd show support, but I doubt seriously if any of us will buy anything that doesn't interest us. Yes, I'll be buying a few MC's that grab my interest, but I won't buy all of them. And those I do buy will probably be direct from Matrix since not many local stores carry the MC's, at least that I've seen. Now, there IS something we in this forum can do that will have a significant impact on Matrix sales... Go to all your local software retailers that don't already carry the MC's and ask them to. If we, as consumers, buy a single copy of an MC, that has very, very little impact. But if retailers (who have buying minimums) start ordering 5-6 copies of each, the impact is greater. Sure, not all those titles will sell, and some may be returned for credit (depending on the retailers arrangement with their supplier), but just having them on the shelves will expose them to new players and expand Matrix's retail foundation.

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Post #: 8

- 3/25/2002 6:47:21 AM

parusski

Posts: 4804
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From: Jackson Tn
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Bernie your points are well taken and understood. One problem that Matrix would face is the available shelf space in the retail stores. There are already big battles amongst the bigger, better known game company's to get on the shelves of the retail outlets. Wargames have been given less and less shelf space in stores such as Best Buy and CompUSA. Of course we could, and should, go to our game retailers and mention Matrix to them. But they will demand many things of Matrix, including minimum numbers of the MC's, sales historys....I think Paul would agree that getting into retail outlets would be difficult-if not impossible.

BTW, I spent the last 8 years managing a chain of 5 furniture stores that just closed. I am now in grad school getting my MS in Computer science. I have had it with retail.

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Post #: 9

- 3/25/2002 7:05:57 AM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by parusski
[B]Bernie your points are well taken and understood. One problem that Matrix would face is the available shelf space in the retail stores. There are already big battles amongst the bigger, better known game company's to get on the shelves of the retail outlets. Wargames have been given less and less shelf space in stores such as Best Buy and CompUSA. Of course we could, and should, go to our game retailers and mention Matrix to them. But they will demand many things of Matrix, including minimum numbers of the MC's, sales historys....I think Paul would agree that getting into retail outlets would be difficult-if not impossible.

BTW, I spent the last 8 years managing a chain of 5 furniture stores that just closed. I am now in grad school getting my MS in Computer science. I have had it with retail. [/B][/QUOTE]

So odd... I got my B.S. in Comp Sci in '84, and went from there into publishing and then retail management :)

Yes, there is significant shelf space competition. But it's not impossible to overcome. Recently I noticed Electronics Botique has been carrying a lot of war games, and not all FPS's. True, they're on the bottom shelves, but they're there!

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Post #: 10

- 3/25/2002 11:52:14 AM

Huffy

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Hey.....not to fuel a fire....but in reading these posts...i did think of EB also...they do carry a wide range of games...and alot of wargames... or pehapes...a Sam's club type store??
just a thought that might help...
take care.....
Huffy

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Post #: 11

- 3/25/2002 12:26:04 PM

Fallschirmjager

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From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
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Ya we have quite a few war games (I work at EB).

They dont sell good but comp games in general dont sell well.

You can read about it on here somewhere(I forget)

If matrix made a console game it would sell better than then the best selling PC game.

Its the sad truth PC games just dont sell well.

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Post #: 12

- 3/25/2002 9:21:15 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I have not done retail per se, but I have gone the route of planning out a small business (fybromyalgia canned it not the market though).

Business succeeds when you have an advantage the other competitors dont have. Its that simple. Its not about a cool product a cool location or any of that. Its about having an advantage and exploiting it.

My small business was going to succeed for only one reason. I was going to operate a small woodworking business out of my own property and I already owned all the tools. Not very unique sounding admittedly.

But economically my overhead barely existed. That was my advantage. I was not going to sell as yet another dude in a craft store. I was not going to do flea markets. I would not be doing one of this and one of that. I would make an item and then approach Sears or another big operation and say "how many would you like?"

Sure I would be in a spot if they said 2000 coffee tables. And in 3 weeks. But then I would not be making them myself eh. I would walk into a store that sold machines and buy them, I would then go to the employment services and hire some skilled woodworkers. Then I would make the tables. And poof I am suddenly a bigger business.

You dont make the item and then sell it. You sell the item then make it. This by the way is how the model railroad hobby functions. There isnt any more of them than there is of us. But my dad shells out several hundred dollars for a brass HO locomotive as if it was natural. The companies that make them though wont make them till they get a minimum number of orders period. Yes that is design tooling manufacture advertising and selling in that order. They dont make 1000 Mikados and then ask loyal Model Railroaders to buy them to support the company.

I think Matrix could well use this to learn a valuable lesson. I want Combat Leader. I am waiting for Combat Leader. Just how many want Combat Leader. I mean actual numbers. 100 200 300 1000 just how many people are waiting.

That is part of the reason I am atempting to provide Paul with a survey that the site can employ.

If Combat Leader has only say 1258 interested persons, is this enough. Personally I dont know, but I think the answer is no myself. If 80% want nothing to do with Modern then Modern is a bad venture regardless of how badly the 20% wants it.

To go back to the train analogy. Is plastic more sellable than brass. If only 20% want brass is it not better to just make a **** good plastic train and then produce a brass example when the company has enough money to waste on a no profit brass item.

Unfortunately the trains always gain value (they are darn fine investments eh). But software, well I hope no one here truely believes software is forever. If Combat Leader doesnt generate sales big time in the first week its a dead duck. I personally dont think pre orders are the way. That is usually make the disk then hope for pre orders just before its produced "physically". I personally think that Matrix needs to find out what we want first and then only design what is shown is wanted. Alas software is not a model train. I would not be the one asking a software maker, to make some software in the same manner as asking some draftsman to produce the drawings for the next model.

I am hoping that my survey notion gets somewhere. Matrix needs cold hard facts to make those big decisions.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 13

- 3/25/2002 10:28:34 PM

Larry Holt

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Bernie, I see that you are EOD qualified and live in Baltimore. I used to command the 149th at APG in the late 70's. Were you there or at the EODCC at Meade?

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Post #: 14

- 3/26/2002 4:55:00 AM

Bernie

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From: Depot HQ - Virginia
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry Holt
[B]Bernie, I see that you are EOD qualified and live in Baltimore. I used to command the 149th at APG in the late 70's. Were you there or at the EODCC at Meade? [/B][/QUOTE]

I was Navy, not Army. Did basic in Orlando, then Great Lakes for "A" school, then out to Cornado, then back to NOB and training at APG. This was all 1974-'75.

In the spring of '76 there was a bomb threat aboard LKA-117 after an open house. Three of us did the initial search and found the device and a team was flown over from APG. Were you the tall thin guy with black hair?

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Post #: 15

- 3/26/2002 8:32:30 AM

Rick Borovec

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From: Rochester, Washington
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I know that I too am waiting for Combat Leader to arrive. I seem to remember something about SPWAW was not able to be sold for some reason that escapes me. But I bought the original Steel Panthers, two or three scenario add on disks, SPII, SPIII and I paid a pretty penny for each. Just a guess, but I would think most us that read this forum did the same. So why did we originally buy SP? In my case it was a choice between Panzer General (which I have never bought) and Steel Panthers. I made the choice based on the Box it came in. Why? Because then SSI sold me with good graphics, and text that made me think that I was getting a good game (and boy were they correct). I could'nt wait for the add ons and the future games of the series. I bought even though SP3 was not what I liked, I just had to have it to complete the series. I was disappointed when the Vietnam and Civil War games never made it.

So, I think the Matrix needs to do as mentioned in the prior posts. Which is make Combat Leader a great game. Then they need to market it not only to us who read the forum, but they need to get into the computer magazines, stores and so on so forth. And then they need to add to it (which I believe is the plan anyway) and they need to sell it for enough to make it worth while. I know I would pay up to $50 for it, as I/we have done in the past. And then I would pay for the add ons. It still amazes and delites me that I didn't have to pay a cent for SPWAW. So when the MC's came out it was certainly reasonable to expect to pay for them, and I did. I have bought many other wargames, but none of them have captured my attention and loyalty as the Steel Panthers games have. It seems hard to me to envision a game that is better, but I will take Matrix's opinion that Combat Leader will be and back it up with cold hard cash the minute they say its ready. I know nothing about game engines, penetration values, armour thicknesses, etc. so I find it hard to suggest to Matrix what I would want in Combat Leader. I just trust that it will be better than SPWAW. Thank you Matrix and I'm behind you 110%.

Wow, this is by far my longest post, hope it makes sense.
Boro

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Post #: 16

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Just wondering about the facts (posted this in General topics as well)

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