Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

Hello,

I am sure someone in one of these threads has brought this up, but felt it was worth saying here. As I am sure some of you know, there is an ongoing discussion about Emipres in Arms being released too soon on that fourm. I know that many of us have been waiting for this WiF to get released so we can take a crack at it. However, for me, I urge Matrix to resist the public presure to get this out there too fast, and will gladly wait the extra time is needed to get it right. A game this large and complex, a huge challenge I am sure, but hopefully many of the bumps and bugs can get fixed the first time around.

Just my 2 cents of input.

Which brings to mind one of my favorite personal phrases: "perfection is an elusive goal."

If I fix everything that the beta testers report, we should be in pretty good shape.

There will undoubtedly be multiple passes at improving the play of the AI Opponent after the original release of MWIF. But that is preferable to the alternative of having everyone who wants to play over the Internet or PBEM wait for the AIO's tactical, operational, and strategic abilities to be honed to a fine edge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

Hello,

I am sure someone in one of these threads has brought this up, but felt it was worth saying here. As I am sure some of you know, there is an ongoing discussion about Emipres in Arms being released too soon on that fourm. I know that many of us have been waiting for this WiF to get released so we can take a crack at it. However, for me, I urge Matrix to resist the public presure to get this out there too fast, and will gladly wait the extra time is needed to get it right. A game this large and complex, a huge challenge I am sure, but hopefully many of the bumps and bugs can get fixed the first time around.

Just my 2 cents of input.

Which brings to mind one of my favorite personal phrases: "perfection is an elusive goal."

If I fix everything that the beta testers report, we should be in pretty good shape.

There will undoubtedly be multiple passes at improving the play of the AI Opponent after the original release of MWIF. But that is preferable to the alternative of having everyone who wants to play over the Internet or PBEM wait for the AIO's tactical, operational, and strategic abilities to be honed to a fine edge.

This, to me, is a VERY troubling statement. One of the biggest letdowns of the EIA-product is the severly inadequate AI (as far as i can tell). To hear such a statement from the designer seems to spell trouble. Are we going to get another AI that is good only for "training purpose" or "for the beginner"????? then i will surely not by the game. Even if i will cry when i push the cancel order button.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

Hello,

I am sure someone in one of these threads has brought this up, but felt it was worth saying here. As I am sure some of you know, there is an ongoing discussion about Emipres in Arms being released too soon on that fourm. I know that many of us have been waiting for this WiF to get released so we can take a crack at it. However, for me, I urge Matrix to resist the public presure to get this out there too fast, and will gladly wait the extra time is needed to get it right. A game this large and complex, a huge challenge I am sure, but hopefully many of the bumps and bugs can get fixed the first time around.

Just my 2 cents of input.

Which brings to mind one of my favorite personal phrases: "perfection is an elusive goal."

If I fix everything that the beta testers report, we should be in pretty good shape.

There will undoubtedly be multiple passes at improving the play of the AI Opponent after the original release of MWIF. But that is preferable to the alternative of having everyone who wants to play over the Internet or PBEM wait for the AIO's tactical, operational, and strategic abilities to be honed to a fine edge.

This, to me, is a VERY troubling statement. One of the biggest letdowns of the EIA-product is the severly inadequate AI (as far as i can tell). To hear such a statement from the designer seems to spell trouble. Are we going to get another AI that is good only for "training purpose" or "for the beginner"????? then i will surely not by the game. Even if i will cry when i push the cancel order button.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mingus Roberts

Not to tell you how to live your life Steve, but there is a fine line between responsive developer feedback and just responding to everyone's whinge of the day (I think the topic 'please get this right' is textbook). I know you have plenty on your plate without feeling obliged to chat with the clientelle. Pat and the boys do a good job fending off the better part of the time eating questions anyhow.

Note my silent lurking despite many years of pent up wifstration.

"Aviate. Navigate. Communicate. In that order." is what I used to say before punching my student pilots in the head for responding to ATC's random requests while trying to land the airplane. Maybe for you we can make it: Code. Compile. Communicate. It'll be hard to punch you from here though;)

I know that I speak for all of your arctic pilot customers (we had a meeting) when I say: we wants a playable game before the icecap melts and the polar bears all starve to death... dammit... too late.

MR

PS Maui no ka 'oi

PPS I'll send pics from the flight deck of me playing on my laptop as soon as I can get hold of the program. Now if you wouldn't mind setting it up so I can play with my pilot/controller buddies via cockpit datalink.... that's in product 1 right?

quote:

The thing is that around the EIA community people are starting to hint at excuses that the AI was never supposed to be anything other than for training purposes. Well, If that will be the case for WIF it should be stated so very clearly in my opinion.

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ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

Please God, don't release this until it is absolutely, completely, totally playable.

Please make sure the AI works well enough to give a solo player a good game.

Please, oh please don't drop another EiA on us.



GSB

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

This is not directed at anyone in particular... It is just an observation.  I hope that we can all keep the appropriate perspective.

I have been following both forums (EIA and WIF) for several years.

From my point of view, the EIA community complained and complained and complained about slow release until there was enough pressure to force a release before it was ready.  I understand that the development team and testors felt it was ready but obviously their focus was multiplayer for those who understood the game.  (Again, they caterered to the vocal elements of the community)

It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that Steve is approaching the development of WIF from a different perspective than the EIA team.    This is not a slam against anyone, but is simply an observation.

It is also noteworthy that the pressure by the WIF forum community to release is not as great as it was with EIA.

WIF is one of the best wargames I have ever played.  It has one drawback--- it is so big as to be cumbersome to play.

MWIF will address that issue whether there is an 'acceptable' AI or not.

Programmers are notorious for being optimistic.  If not, we would never start some of the projects we attempt.

In my opinion, the following things will happen.

1.  Steve will work hard on creating an AI that will be (at least) useful for beginning players and casual play.
2.  Steve will attempt to create an AI that will be competitive for expert players
3.  The AI will improve after release IF there are enough sales to warrant continued development.
4.  After release, imbalance issues due to RAW (rules as written) will be exposed and the AI will take the initial blame for some of those.
5.  Innovative players will find 'secret knocks' that will allow them to whip the AI like a rented mule
6.  Steve will fix them IF there are enough sales to warrant continued development
7.  There will be vocal elements of the community that will claim 'foul' because they want the AI to be as polished as Deep Blue (IBM's chess program)
8.  If Steve is successful in points 1, 2, 3, and 6, the same vocal elements of the community will claim that the AI cheats.

and finally....

Steve will have moved heaven and earth to create something wonderful and if we are not careful, a few loud voices will prevent the continuation of development and the additions of Days Of Decision (a very wonderful addition, IMO). 

When the time comes, we need to remember how hard it was to learn to play this game well.  We need to remember, that an AI is nothing more than a computer program.  We need to realize that this game has so many exceptions to rules and fluid situations that a savvy player may always be able to outsmart the AI with feints, gambits, and such. 

We need to realize that if Steve accomplishes point 2 from above, that he will deserve to be installed as a minor deity in the pantheon of computer programmers.

Don't fault him for attempting the insanely difficult with an inadequate budget of time and money.  If it weren't for people like Steve, Marshall, and the folks at matrix games, we would have little or no option to pushing cardboard when we want our wargaming fix.  Vassal will never have an AI.  Cyberboard will never have an AI. 

For the record, I bought Empires in Arms the day it was released.  I have not been able to play it because (having never played the board game) I am lost.  Someday, I hope to find the time to study the tutorial and gain some understanding of the game.

BUT - I am not complaining.  Every now and then, we have to vote with our wallets to encourage private industry to attempt new things.

I will do the same with WIF.

I encourage others who feel the same way to be vocal as well.  Our opinions are valid too.

Good Luck Steve!!!!



Remember - anyone who wants may participate in the AI threads.  I haven't because I was never any good at this game.  What few things I felt I could add were covered already by others.

Have a nice day!