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P-38 vs Zero - 5/12/2008 11:13:59 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline 		I asked in another thread if the P-38's can stand up to the zero, and got a resounding no.

My P-39/P-400 Pilots were nursed and trained on naval targets and 4/6 of the squads that upped are in the 70's avg(74-84). The test so far as been from Buna to Rabaul on sweeps and escort.

So far they are wiping the floor with the Japs.

I have kept about 5-6 P-39/P400 squads out of range to be upped b/c I needed fighter bombers (only planes that will launch against barges).

I don't want to get into a bad situation, if this is a fluke (fighting pilots in their 20s'). What kind of results should I be getting?

Also - One of my Wildcat squads got upgraded to Corsairs. Do marine Wildcats get upped to corsairs?

< Message edited by OG_Gleep -- 5/12/2008 11:14:59 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/12/2008 7:20:39 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Yes VMFs go from F4F-4s to F4Us.  P-38s do OK vs Zeros, though Corsairs are the killers, and their range allows them to escort missions that couldn't be before. 

No I'm not looking to argure Zeros and Lightnings in case somebody is lurking.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 2
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/13/2008 2:42:52 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline 		Ya this was just a game related question.

Btw does anyone know what is the maximum base for both east/west sides of the map for P39 - P38's and F4F to F4U's?

Trying to control who is upgraded and when.

< Message edited by OG_Gleep -- 5/13/2008 2:46:47 AM >

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 3
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/14/2008 10:20:35 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

though Corsairs are the killers, and their range allows them to escort missions that couldn't be before. 


I had forgotten just how true this was. Below is just obsene. I was strapped too. Had to put down every single fighter except two bases. Corsairs in question were on LRCAP from PM at 31 fatigue.

Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 71
A6M3 Zero x 47
G4M1 Betty x 10
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 15

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 18 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 15 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 3 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 7 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair x 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 damaged

FO F.Short of VMF-124 is credited with kill number 8

LTJG L.Nakajima of F1/252nd Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED

Allied Ships
DD Nicholson
BB Maryland, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans

Attacking Level Bombers:
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

< Message edited by OG_Gleep -- 5/14/2008 10:21:11 AM >

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 4
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/14/2008 5:49:40 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Until the Allies have bases close, in Corair range, to their Japanese targets the P-38s are well suited to escort bombers and the Corsairs to guard the chicken coops.

In 1 of my PBEMs a single sqd of Corsairs went like a hot knife through butter on a Japanese air raid.  The Corsair pilots were in the mid 60s experience range.  I can't wait to see them in the 70s and then the 80s.


_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 5
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/15/2008 12:30:38 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline 		I have a corsair squad that just upgraded thats 77 avg (99 highest). That turn I had moved the Long Island into the port to load them up but forgot to put cap up and it was sunk =(

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 6
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/15/2008 9:54:51 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline 		Another quick question: P40E Warhawk ....do they upgrade to P-38's? I had a squad in Townsville resting (japs weren't doing anything) for 3 months. In that time 6 P-39 Squads at various bases upped. The scen 17 OOB states that the P40's go to P-38's. Checking to make sure that is true (same doc that says F4F goes to hellcats, discounting the F4U upgrade).

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 7
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/15/2008 5:04:21 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		The P-40E Warhawk (USAAC) will upgrade to the P-38G, but the P-40E Kittyhawk (RAAF) will not upgrade.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 8
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/15/2008 9:21:02 PM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline 		P40E's are elgiable the same date the P-39s are to be upped to P-38's correct? There isn't a different date?

The OOB 17 has me a bit confused.

It is too bad the Kittyhawks don't have a upgrade path. The aussies are the backbone of your Air Corps for a long time. I've kept K. Truscott alive (8 kills 97 xp) alive since day 1 and he is quickly becoming obsolete.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 9
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/15/2008 11:51:14 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

P40E's are elgiable the same date the P-39s are to be upped to P-38's correct? There isn't a different date?

The OOB 17 has me a bit confused.


18.7...

Every day, during the supply operations phase, air units within their maximum range of either Truk, Noumea or Brisbane will check for possible upgrading. There must be sufficient new model planes in the replacement pool to bring the upgrading unit up to its maximum ready aircraft level for the upgrade to occur.

If these conditions are met, then the current planes in the unit are returned to the replacement pool and the unit is given new planes equal to the maximum ready aircraft level of the unit.

The necessary amounts of new aircraft in the replacement pool to effect upgrades are 125% for IJN and 133% for the Allies.

#) Aircraft Name --> Upgrade #) Upgrade Aircraft
1) A5M4 Claude --> 3) A6M2 Zero
2) A6M2-N Rufe
3) A6M2 Zero --> 4) A6M3 Zero
4) A6M3 Zero --> 5) A6M5 Zeke
5) A6M5 Zeke
7) N1K1-J George
8) J1N1-C Irving
10) D3A Val --> 12) D4Y Judy
12) D4Y Judy
13) A6M5-B Zeke
15) B5N Kate --> 17) B6N Jill
17) B6N Jill
20) G3M Nell --> 22) G4M1 Betty
22) G4M1 Betty --> 23) G4M2 Betty
23) G4M2 Betty
25) P1Y Frances
27) J1N1-R Irving
28) H6K Mavis --> 29) H8K Emily
29) H8K Emily
30) E8N Dave --> 32) E13A1 Jake
31) F1M2 Pete
32) E13A1 Jake
33) E7K2 Alf
34) Ki-27 Nate --> 35) Ki-43-Ia Oscar
35) Ki-43-Ia Oscar --> 36) Ki-43-IIa Oscar
36) Ki-43-IIa Oscar --> 39) Ki-61 KAIc Tony
37) Ki-44-IIb Tojo
38) Ki-45 KAIb Nick
39) Ki-61 KAIc Tony --> 40) Ki-84-Ia Frank
40) Ki-84-Ia Frank --> 41) Ki-84-Ic Frank
41) Ki-84-Ic Frank
42) Ki-45 KAIa Nick
43) Ki-51 Sonia
44) Ki-21 Sally --> 46) Ki-67 Peggy
45) Ki-48 Lily
46) Ki-67 Peggy
47) Ki-46 Dinah
48) Ki-49 Helen --> 46) Ki-67 Peggy
49) Ki-57-I Topsy
60) F2A Buffalo --> 62) F4F-3 Wildcat
62) F4F-3 Wildcat --> 63) F4F-4 Wildcat
63) F4F-4 Wildcat --> 65) F6F Hellcat
65) F6F Hellcat
67) F4U-1 Corsair --> 68) F4U-4 Corsair
68) F4U-4 Corsair
71) SBD Dauntless --> 73) SB2C Helldiver
73) SB2C Helldiver
76) TBD Devastator --> 77) TBF Avenger
77) TBF Avenger
80) PBY Catalina
82) OS2U-3 Kingfisher
83) SOC-3 Seagull
87) Hudson --> 96) Beaufighter VIC
89) C-47 Dakota
91) Hurricane II --> 93) Spitfire Vb
93) Spitfire Vb --> 94) Spitfire IX
94) Spitfire IX
95) Boomerang II
96) Beaufighter VIC
97) Beaufort --> 96) Beaufighter VIC
98) Wellington III
99) Wirraway --> 95) Boomerang II
100) P-400 Airacobra --> 101) P-39D Airacobra
101) P-39D Airacobra --> 105) P-38G Lightning
103) P-40E Kittyhawk
104) P-40E Warhawk --> 105) P-38G Lightning
105) P-38G Lightning --> 106) P-38J Lightning
106) P-38J Lightning
107) F-5A Lightning --> 108) F-5C Lightning
108) F-5C Lightning
109) P-47C Thunderbolt --> 110) P-47D Thunderbolt
110) P-47D Thunderbolt
112) A-36A Apache --> 103) P-40E Kittyhawk
113) P-51B Mustang --> 114) P-51D Mustang
114) P-51D Mustang
115) F-6A Mustang --> 116) F-6D Mustang
116) F-6D Mustang
117) P-61A Black Widow
118) P-70A Havoc
119) A-24 Dauntless --> 140) A-20B Havoc
120) A-20B Boston --> 143) A-20G Boston
121) A-20G Havoc
123) B-25D Mitchell --> 124) B-25J Mitchell
124) B-25J Mitchell
126) B-26B Marauder --> 124) B-25J Mitchell
127) B-26G Marauder --> 124) B-25J Mitchell
129) A-26B Invader
132) B-17E Fortress --> 137) B-24J Liberator
133) B-17G Fortress
135) PB4Y Liberator
136) B-24D Liberator --> 137) B-24J Liberator
137) B-24J Liberator
140) A-20B Havoc --> 121) A-20G Havoc
142) P-39D Airacobra --> 103) P-40E Kittyhawk
143) A-20G Boston

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 5/15/2008 11:54:25 PM >

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 10
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 9:28:15 AM   
OG_Gleep

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 12/27/2002
Status: offline 		Ya righto. Notice the F4F entry says Hellcats?

I had P40's within range the entire time my P39 squads (actually closer) to Brisbane while they upped to P38's. There is also a date, was wondering if there was a specific date that the P40's were eligable, or if it was just a coin toss and the P39's just happened to win 6/6 times.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 11
Unit Upgrade Order - 5/16/2008 10:18:04 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline 		Past posts on this forum have indicated that the AI upgrades the units with the lowest number in the database first.

(Computers don't have much imagination...)

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 12
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 10:33:42 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

It is too bad the Kittyhawks don't have a upgrade path. The aussies are the backbone of your Air Corps for a long time. I've kept K. Truscott alive (8 kills 97 xp) alive since day 1 and he is quickly becoming obsolete.


Unfortunately the only Lightnings the RAAF ever took on charge* were three recon P-38E's allocated to 1PRU (No.1 Photo Reconnaissance Unit) which didn't survive past mid'44.

(* apparently there were a couple more temporary loans from the USAAF).

Why? I would hazard a guess that P-38s weren't numerous enough to be offered as lendlease items. P-40s were and deliveries continued to Australia to the end of the war.

If you are interested in this subject, follow this link to Australian Military Aircraft Serials and Aircraft History site and select the "RAAF Series 2" tab at the top of the page. This will bring up the list of World War II aircraft taken on charge by the RAAF. Note that other aircraft were operated but not necessarily 'owned' by the RAAF.

< Message edited by Reg -- 5/16/2008 10:39:57 AM >

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 13
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 6:45:12 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		There were plenty of P-38s produced, but at the time that they were being used as a frontline fighter in the Pacific they were in demand for European useage also.  Outfitting a squadron is one thing and keeping it in planes is another when you factor in aircraft lost to combat, ops and just plain worn out.

F4F-4s upgrade to F6Fs for naval squadrons and the VMF squadrons go to the Corsairs.


_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 14
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 7:21:52 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Below is just obsene.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 71
A6M3 Zero x 47
G4M1 Betty x 10
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 15

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 18 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 15 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 3 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 7 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair x 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair x 1 damaged

FO F.Short of VMF-124 is credited with kill number 8

LTJG L.Nakajima of F1/252nd Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED

Allied Ships
DD Nicholson
BB Maryland, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans

Attacking Level Bombers:
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet


I agree those results are obscene; Betties with torpedoes are vastly overrated in this game.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 15
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 7:37:56 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

I agree those results are obscene; Betties with torpedoes are vastly overrated in this game.


Do you even play UV or WITP mdiehl?

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Post #: 16
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 7:56:23 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		It is intersting to see that the P-39s never upgrade to P-47s.

(in reply to OG_Gleep)
Post #: 17
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 9:49:31 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Do you even play UV or WITP mdiehl?


Played UV extensively. Long enough to catalog its many errors overrating Japanese power projection capability. Played WitP briefly: long enough to see the same errors carried forward from UV to WitP. Read enough WitP AARs to confirm the many serious errors there. I'm hopeful but skeptical about the prospects that AE will correctly model relative power projection abilities.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/16/2008 9:50:32 PM >

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 18
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/16/2008 11:32:09 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

Played UV extensively. Long enough to catalog its many errors overrating Japanese power projection capability. Played WitP briefly: long enough to see the same errors carried forward from UV to WitP. Read enough WitP AARs to confirm the many serious errors there. I'm hopeful but skeptical about the prospects that AE will correctly model relative power projection abilities.


So the answer would be, ¨No¨...you do not play UV or WITP. Interesting you´ve included yourself in as a future buyer of AE though.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 19
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/17/2008 12:00:48 AM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Played UV extensively. Long enough to catalog its many errors overrating Japanese power projection capability. Played WitP briefly: long enough to see the same errors carried forward from UV to WitP. Read enough WitP AARs to confirm the many serious errors there. I'm hopeful but skeptical about the prospects that AE will correctly model relative power projection abilities.


So the answer would be, ¨No¨...you do not play UV or WITP. Interesting you´ve included yourself in as a future buyer of AE though.


Whilst your statement is correct, ie that UV & WITP are not currently played by Mdiehl; the statement he makes clearly shows that both have been played in the past, making your comment slightly snide & very pedantic, as it suggusts that he does not know what he is talking about.

If your experience on Torpedo hits from Betty's differs from Mdiehl then say so. Don't just treat him as an irrevelence.

By the way, you never did say why you chose "Tojo's Loins" as your "From" rather than something less "risky". Any comment?

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 20
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/17/2008 12:46:28 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

So the answer would be,


You are incorrect. The answer would be, and in fact is, precisely that which I wrote, rather than some imaginary response that you would like to pretend that I wrote.

quote:

Interesting you´ve included yourself in as a future buyer of AE though.


AE purports to eliminate many of the flawed assumptions by which garden variety WitP overrates Japanese power projection. Since I would like to own an obejtectivel GOOD WW2 PTO consim, I am always interested in new PTO games or updates on old ones. If someone ever gets it correct, it would save me the trouble of writing such a game -- something I will not have time to do for years at least.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/17/2008 12:48:45 AM >

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 21
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/17/2008 1:57:12 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

You are incorrect.


I am ¨incorrect¨?



How?

I asked if you play UV or WITP. It seems no you don´t.

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Post #: 22
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/17/2008 2:12:55 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OG_Gleep

I asked in another thread if the P-38's can stand up to the zero, and got a resounding no.


Really? Everytime the two meet in an engagement in my game I'm a happy man. The 35th US Army FS has 127 kills and the 36th US Army FS 109 kills, I'd guess that atleast 75% of them were against enemy fighters while on escort missions.



_____________________________

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Post #: 23
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/17/2008 3:18:05 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

By the way, you never did say why you chose "Tojo's Loins" as your "From" rather than something less "risky". Any comment?


Yeah, here is my comment...







Attachment (1)

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 24
Upgrade paths - 5/17/2008 5:51:25 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear

It is interesting to see that the P-39s never upgrade to P-47s.


This is an error as the 41FS transitioned from P-39 to P-47 in late '43.

I believe that upgrade list is from the original release and there have been some changes made in the various patches based on input from the players.

You will have to look at the individual patch release notes to see what they are but one that immediately springs to mind is that the Beaufort no longer upgrades to Beaufighter. There could be more.

< Message edited by Reg -- 5/17/2008 12:33:00 PM >

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to panda124c)
Post #: 25
RE: Upgrade paths - 5/17/2008 2:45:22 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Ike your trolling again.  Why are you always doing this?  Is it that difficult not to be confrontational?

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 26
RE: Upgrade paths - 5/17/2008 6:31:49 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline
quote:

Ike your trolling again. Why are you always doing this? Is it that difficult not to be confrontational?


I´m trolling again?

Am I the one hanging out on a game forums try to stir up debates for games I don´t even play?!!!



(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 27
RE: Upgrade paths - 5/17/2008 7:34:19 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		So who cares if he plays, played or never did either?  What's the big deal?  You're making a mountain out of a mole hill for a change.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 28
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/18/2008 2:04:50 AM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
Status: offline 		Sorry - not psychic. What's your comment? It is a serious question!

NB. Comments usually come in a word format, or if in picture, then with appropriate words included ( cartoons ).

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 29
RE: P-38 vs Zero - 5/19/2008 9:56:44 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

I asked if you play UV or WITP. It seems no you don´t.


I've played it enough to know how it works. Therefore, your question was either an irrelevant non-sequitur (in effect, you weren't implying that I don't know how UV works), or else you were just engaging in mendacious straw man argumentation. Either way, you don't come across as having anything important or relevant to contribute to the discussion.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 30
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