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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Larry Bond's Harpoon - Commander's Edition >> OK I'm a little frustrated

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OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/20/2008 5:21:14 PM

SteveF2006

Posts: 111
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline

Maybe someone can help. It seems as though some of the enemy forces have some "special forces" available that the player doesn't. This is in the Med 2003 battle set and the same thing happens in the Atlantic 2003 scenarios. For instance, I created a scenario where a 2-carrier battle group is facing several European carrier forces in the Med.

I have my battle group with active radars off but my Hawkeye's pick up an Italian group at a distance. I launch 12 F-35s to intercept the enemy CAP. I set them at VLow with active Radars off. Behind this group I have a group of F/A-18 II in the Asuw setting and at Low altitude and they are accompanied by a Growler for EW jamming all with active Radars off. Behind this group I have 2 F/A 18's at low altitude with Radar's off. When my forces are "close", I send the back two F/A 18s to high altitude and turn on active Radar. Nothing shows up. Then, some how Italian Harriers are able to see my strike force and shoot down a large portion of it. All the while, their forces are nowhere to be seen on my radar. Since when are Harriers "stealthy"? What is preventing my active radar to find the enemy ships? Is it realistic for this to happen?

Then, if that doesn't take the cake, my foces are found by the enemy and they start shooting down my F-35's and ASW screen. I never do "see" what is attacking. No offense to the Italian Navy but since when did a Harrier become more stealthy than an F-35? I only see this happening when I an coming up against French or Italian forces.

Any thoughts????

Post #: 1

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/20/2008 5:37:35 PM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

No deep thoughts here but I'll lay out some numbers.

RCS number of Harrier = 134
Radar Range I assume your Hornets have = 160nm
Absolute maximum range the Hornets can detect the Harriers given that information, 54nm

Radar detection only happens every 30 seconds, the Hornet radar I looked at has a 65% chance of detection so statistically 35% of the time it won't detect the Harriers even if they are in range.

If the Hornets are at High, then radar line of sight won't be a limiting factor unless the weather was horrible (i.e. unless it was in the middle of a storm icon).

If you don't mind making scenarios, set up a test scenario with Harrier and Hornets, run it through a number of times from each side, noting range of first detection. Your results may force a re-examination of database values. As for where the Harrier is falling terms of stealthiness, much more stealthy than an F-4, a little less stealthy than an F-16 (HCDB-080406).

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SteveF2006)

Post #: 2

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/20/2008 5:55:53 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

I'd repeat what Tony said, plus some additional comments...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveF2006
... they are accompanied by a Growler for EW jamming all with active Radars off.

The Growlers won't perform any active jamming unless their radars are energized.

quote:

Then, some how Italian Harriers are able to see my strike force and shoot down a large portion of it. All the while, their forces are nowhere to be seen on my radar.

Were the Harriers flying at Vlow? If so, this would considerably reduce your radar's range against them. Are there intervening enemy ships or aircraft that might have spotted you?

quote:

What is preventing my active radar to find the enemy ships? Is it realistic for this to happen?

What enemy ships are in play? What is the range? What radar are you using to try and detect them? Is the enemy employing jamming? Too many variables at play here to try and answer without seeing the scenario.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to SteveF2006)

Post #: 3

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/21/2008 4:45:17 AM

theCase

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveF2006
Maybe someone can help. It seems as though some of the enemy forces have some "special forces" available that the player doesn't................
..............Any thoughts????

No comments other than I thought you did an excellent job explaining the situation. I too have noticed that often my first indication of trouble is that missile warning tone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Radar detection only happens every 30 seconds, the Hornet radar I looked at has a 65% chance of detection so statistically 35% of the time it won't detect the Harriers even if they are in range.

Is this 30 second "Sweep" time for all radars in general or is it a platform specific? is the 65% chance of detection platform specific?

I've poked into the database just a few times, and found it to be a frightening, dark place of astounding complexity and mystery. I then clicked on File>Close and returned to my naive, happy view of the world.

(in reply to SteveF2006)

Post #: 4

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/21/2008 5:04:36 AM

PatinAZ

Posts: 32
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveF2006

Maybe someone can help. It seems as though some of the enemy forces have some "special forces" available that the player doesn't. This is in the Med 2003 battle set and the same thing happens in the Atlantic 2003 scenarios. For instance, I created a scenario where a 2-carrier battle group is facing several European carrier forces in the Med.

I have my battle group with active radars off but my Hawkeye's pick up an Italian group at a distance. I launch 12 F-35s to intercept the enemy CAP. I set them at VLow with active Radars off.
I'm not sure which planes have the terrain-following radar. When I fly at Vlow, I lose aircraft to crashing at much too fast a rate for my taste. I reserve vlow for desparate moments like a helo is inside the range of enemy AAM fire. Or aircraft with SAMs coming in that I have no other countermeasures for.
Behind this group I have a group of F/A-18 II in the Asuw setting and at Low altitude and they are accompanied by a Growler for EW jamming all with active Radars off.
That's one problem, An EW plane is only active for EW if the radar is ON.
Behind this group I have 2 F/A 18's at low altitude with Radar's off. When my forces are "close", I send the back two F/A 18s to high altitude and turn on active Radar. Nothing shows up. Then, some how Italian Harriers are able to see my strike force and shoot down a large portion of it. All the while, their forces are nowhere to be seen on my radar. Since when are Harriers "stealthy"? What is preventing my active radar to find the enemy ships? Is it realistic for this to happen?
Define what you mean by 'close' - 30 miles, 60 miles or what? Have you resolved where the ships are so that Harpoons can be ready to fire? Also how far behind the F-35s are the back group of F/A-18s? That cuts into the detection distance. What's the best missile that Harriers have, Sidewinder or the 40 mi AMRAAM? Not familiar with F-35 loadouts but they have the 60 mile AMRAAM at least, I think. With a greater range than he has you want to detect before he gets a chance to fire. Would recommend turning on ALL radars and far enough back to get at least 60 seconds to detect. Also slow down to 5:1 time or less to have time to react.

Then, if that doesn't take the cake, my foces are found by the enemy and they start shooting down my F-35's and ASW screen. I never do "see" what is attacking. No offense to the Italian Navy but since when did a Harrier become more stealthy than an F-35? I only see this happening when I an coming up against French or Italian forces.
Do the French have any Rafeles? Due to the settings in the current database the Rafeles are 'super-planes' and harder to detect than anything else. i would call them special forces.
Any thoughts????

(in reply to SteveF2006)

Post #: 5

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/21/2008 5:16:06 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatinAZ
I'm not sure which planes have the terrain-following radar. When I fly at Vlow, I lose aircraft to crashing at much too fast a rate for my taste. I reserve vlow for desparate moments like a helo is inside the range of enemy AAM fire. Or aircraft with SAMs coming in that I have no other countermeasures for.

Unfortunately, terrain following capability is not something shown in the current platform display. (Probably something for the wish list). You can determine TF capability in the Platform Editor (PE) by looking for the flag LRMTS. (Yes, I know, it really means Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker, but in the code it actually denotes TF capability).

quote:

Due to the settings in the current database the Rafeles are 'super-planes' and harder to detect than anything else. i would call them special forces.

Several people have commented now that they have found the Rafale to be 'too stealthy'. I've made an adjustment to its RCS in the HCDB database which will appear in the next update. Up until the recent improvements in the EW model, I had been attempting to simulate the capability of the Rafale's Spectra EW suite by adding stealth. Now the Spectra is modeled independently, I've upped the RCS.

That said, I would caution folks against drawing broad conclusions about the relative capabilities of planes like the F-35 JSF against Rafale, etc. There are many variables and unknowns at play here (including a heckuva lot of classified data we will never know) that are difficult to translate precisely into what is admittedly a very generalized game model.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to PatinAZ)

Post #: 6

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/21/2008 6:13:42 PM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theCase

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Radar detection only happens every 30 seconds, the Hornet radar I looked at has a 65% chance of detection so statistically 35% of the time it won't detect the Harriers even if they are in range.

Is this 30 second "Sweep" time for all radars in general or is it a platform specific? is the 65% chance of detection platform specific?

I've poked into the database just a few times, and found it to be a frightening, dark place of astounding complexity and mystery. I then clicked on File>Close and returned to my naive, happy view of the world.

Yes, the 30 second "Sweep" time is for every radar and that value comes from the H3 paper rules, most of the sensors are only swept every 30 seconds, passive sonar even less often, 5 minutes (on the theory that a contact/track needs time to be established).

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to theCase)

Post #: 7

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/22/2008 2:19:51 AM

theCase

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Yes, the 30 second "Sweep" time is for every radar and that value comes from the H3 paper rules, most of the sensors are only swept every 30 seconds, passive sonar even less often, 5 minutes (on the theory that a contact/track needs time to be established).

thank you very much! I love getting these little nuggets of what's going behind the scenes.

AFA passive contacts. I used to be on a sub (many, many moons ago) and remember being up in control watching them develop a passive contact for a torpedo solution, I think it took over 20 minutes.

(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 8

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/26/2008 4:37:48 PM

mack2

Posts: 243
Joined: 6/29/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatinAZ
I'm not sure which planes have the terrain-following radar. When I fly at Vlow, I lose aircraft to crashing at much too fast a rate for my taste. I reserve vlow for desparate moments like a helo is inside the range of enemy AAM fire. Or aircraft with SAMs coming in that I have no other countermeasures for.

Unfortunately, terrain following capability is not something shown in the current platform display. (Probably something for the wish list). You can determine TF capability in the Platform Editor (PE) by looking for the flag LRMTS. (Yes, I know, it really means Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker, but in the code it actually denotes TF capability).

Look! Here:
http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=2091
Edit 6!

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 9

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/26/2008 9:05:36 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

Yeah, I see it in your wish list.

Lets hope that some elements of 'your' wish list eventually find their way into 'the' wish list.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to mack2)

Post #: 10

RE: OK I'm a little frustrated - 5/26/2008 11:13:33 PM

FransKoenz

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

Yeah, I see it in your wish list. Lets hope that some elements of 'your' wish list eventually find their way into 'the' wish list.

A wishlist into a wishlist......