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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> Suitable for virgins?

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Suitable for virgins? - 6/1/2008 5:56:12 PM

grarap

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Hey all. I would make a joke about wargame fans and virginity, but I'd probably just be indicting myself, as a self-confessed nerd. I caught sight of the WbtS promo video on a gaming site, was mightily intrigued and found my way here. By my single post count, you've probably guessed that I'm not a war gaming buff, although I played risk and chess as a child and enjoy the odd game of Civilisation IV. Problem is that I was never very good at any of the three (my best Civ IV leader ranking is 'Dan Quayle' - utterly abysmal

), and so I'm slightly concerned that this game is going to go straight over my head. Can any one of you wargaming veterans or developers reassure me that WbtS is going to be simple to pick up (although not necessarily master) and fun to play for fans of other turn-based strategy games? To those testers (

): is the game merely cold, hard logic and maneuvering, or is there real excitement in watching battles unfold and commanding your little troops march around the world map? I really can't wait for the release!

Regards, Raph

< Message edited by grarap -- 6/1/2008 6:11:28 PM >

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/1/2008 7:17:23 PM

GShock

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There are a few options that make the game considerably harder but i'd say the learning curve is balanced.

Winning is always about devising a consistent strategy, that you can only do with planning but i'd exclude this "cold hard logic manouvering" you mentioned...even when playing against the AI it's pretty satisfying to kick the Union back in the sea!

Finally, you don't get to see tiny soldiers, battlefield, smoke clouds, blood...but you do see a live report from battle where you can see which unit hit which, which leader got hit and so on and it's quite thrilling indeed.

(in reply to grarap)

Post #: 2

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/1/2008 7:21:48 PM

grarap

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Thanks for the reply. I suppose that my reservations are about wargames in general, but then again I'm more than willing to give something new a shot this summer. I know that it's been said a million times before (I've checked other threads), but are there any video AAR's in the pipeline, or some sort of 'gameplay' trailer? The promo video was tantalizing, but there wasn't an awful lot of combat to be seen.

(in reply to GShock)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/1/2008 7:35:01 PM

GShock

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Keep an eye on the AAR section.
Rhj and I have started a PBEM and i will be publishing divx vids on my turns and answer the coming questions.

Do not expect commentary or subtitles, just the video.

(in reply to grarap)

Post #: 4

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/1/2008 8:47:08 PM

grarap

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Oh wow, thats great! Got any idea when you're going to stick the first video up?

(in reply to GShock)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/1/2008 11:40:18 PM

Joel Billings

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At the risk of losing a sale, you might want to consider another turn based wargame first. We did make a demo for our World at War game and you can find it here:

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=27019

and info about the game here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/demos.asp?gid=295

Although WaW is not available from Matrix Games anymore, you can probably find it online somewhere, and probably pretty cheap (I think it was around $19 when last seen in stores). It is the simplest wargame that we've done, and compares in some degree to the boardgame Axis & Allies (although WaW is much more involved and complicated than Axis & Allies). The sequel to WaW, A World Divided is available at Matrix games and info can be found here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=330

There is no demo for AWD, but it plays like WaW but with many improvements. It is more complicated than WaW though, so you're probably better starting with WaW if you can find it. Others may be able to point you to other wargames that would be good for a beginner, but those are my suggestions. You should try the WaW demo though, if only to get an idea for how the interface works, because there are many similarities between WaW's basic interface and War Between the States. Of course, War Between the States adds a whole new layer because it has leaders, and leaders are critical to everything you do in WBTS (they aren't in WaW/AWD). I would not recommend WBTS to someone that had never played a turn based wargame before, while I would recommend WaW. I hope you'll give one of the wargames a try (one of these, or another if you can get some other recommendations). I think it's worth putting in the extra effort to get into a wargame, because it'll provide hours of fun once you get into it. Good luck.

(in reply to grarap)

Post #: 6

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 12:07:48 AM

grarap

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Hmmm, thanks for that. What do you think makes WbtS 'unsuitable' for newbs like me? I'm not trying to be rude - I'm genuinely interested. Do you think that it's the amount of information and variables that you have to keep in mind all the time?

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 7

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 12:44:42 AM

Joel Billings

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The concepts regarding how leaders get initiative (with Theatre, Army and unit commanders) and then once with initiative give Movement points to the units attached to them, are unusual. Many testers have had trouble beating the AI because they really don't know how to get their armies together so they can attack effectively, and they don't realize what is needed in order to win a battle when the enemy has a reaction phase and can move nearby units in to the area attacked. You can think you're attacking a small force and find yourself attacking a big army, and depending on your leaders (and Union leaders at first are usually mediocre at best), you can easily lose a lot of battles. Lose too many early on and your political points go down, and you go into a death spiral. As Confederates, since the AI knows what to do, you can feel pretty outnumbered and unable to halt the Union armies if you don't know how to use your forces. It's not so much you're not being able to move units around, it's making the "smart" moves that are needed to do well.

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Post #: 8

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 10:28:00 AM

grarap

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So could you get the hang of WbtS merely by sitting down with the manual for a long while and experimenting with tactics in-game, or does it complicatedness only make it suitable for those who have a strong grip of wargames?

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 9

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 11:51:51 AM

GShock

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The tutorials and the video tutorials are just excellent. The learning curve is balanced and the interface is intuitive...you'll need much less than you think to learn playing.

(in reply to grarap)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 12:01:48 PM

grarap

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Aaaah, mixed messages! Unfortunately, the WaW demo isn't working for me, so I guess that the only way to determine whether I have the 'skill' to play this game is either watch videos or buy it

Thanks for your honesty Joel.

(in reply to GShock)

Post #: 11

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 5:21:29 PM

morganbj

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It's hard to say whether you'll be able to pick the game up, because we don't know that much about you. The truth is that most who play wargames were students of military history, to one degree or another, before they ever saw a wargame. A smaller number became military history buffs after playing their first wargame, as they sought out materials to enhance their understanding of what was happeneing in the game.

Wargames are not chess. I, too, was a chess player in my earlier years, and I loved the game. Still do. But chess is perfectly balanced. Each side has the same "units". They have the same capabilities. There are no differences at all, except, of course that one side goes first. In a wargame, there are inherent differences with one side having an advantage in one area, the other has an advantage somewhere else. (Sometimes the only advantage is that one side doesn't have to win, they only have to not lose.) Appreciating why these diifferences exist and how they were dealt with in real life is part of the allure.

The point is that you learning of the game depends greatly on learning the historical context of the game, otherwise, you'll find the rules arbitrary and unfair, when, in fact, the exact opposite is true. Some are there to have the game mirror history very closely. (And yes, others really are arbitrary and unfair.)

So, only you can decide. Me? I've played wargames since 1962. I love them, especially when they are reasonably historically accurate.

(in reply to grarap)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 5:35:14 PM

grarap

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Well, I've always been a bit of a Civil War buff. In fact, I wrote a paper on it for my History A-level more than a few years back (I'm British), and studied 19th c. History at university. I guess I'm unusual in that respect, as a foreigner with an interest in the early US.

I suppose the lesson here is that I have to try the game before I can reasonably judge it.

(in reply to morganbj)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 5:43:59 PM

Joel Billings

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The fact that you are interested in the ACW is a big plus for enjoying the game. I do think that if you are willing to read the manual, run the in-game tutorials and watch the video tutorials, you will learn the game. Then hanging out in the forum and asking questions where you still don't understand will help as well. I'm sure you can learn it if you want to take the steps. Whether you enjoy it or not is hard to say. Again, having an interest in the ACW helps because you'll be learning all kinds of things about it by just learning the game.

You said the WaW demo wasn't working for you. Are you having a technical glitch of some kind? The game engines are similar enough that if you are having a problem running the WaW demo you'll probably have a similar problem with WBTS. We should try to troubleshoot it for you.

(in reply to grarap)

Post #: 14

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 5:46:53 PM

grarap

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Oh, it's just that the zip file is corrupted, so I can't open it. I've downloaded the demo from both that link you gave me and Gamershell, so I assumed that it was a problem with the file itself. I'm running Vista. I'll give it another shot right now and see how it goes.

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 9:44:29 PM

General Quarters

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grarap, I know enough about you to know that you are an obviously intelligent guy who likes history, including ACW history. And, although I have not played this game, I know enough about it to guage its level of complexity. On the basis of that, I would be astounded if you have any problem learning this game. I would personally be willing to refund your money if I am wrong. ;)

(in reply to grarap)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 10:12:17 PM

grarap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

grarap, I know enough about you to know that you are an obviously intelligent guy who likes history, including ACW history. And, although I have not played this game, I know enough about it to guage its level of complexity. On the basis of that, I would be astounded if you have any problem learning this game. I would personally be willing to refund your money if I am wrong. ;)

It's a deal!

(in reply to General Quarters)

Post #: 17

RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/2/2008 10:54:43 PM

morganbj

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Then, just send the game to me. I promise to enjoy it for hours and hours and hours .... all on your behalf.

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 5:56:18 AM

Crimguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

grarap, I know enough about you to know that you are an obviously intelligent guy who likes history, including ACW history. And, although I have not played this game, I know enough about it to guage its level of complexity. On the basis of that, I would be astounded if you have any problem learning this game. I would personally be willing to refund your money if I am wrong. ;)

I think that's well-said. From my perspective (a big wargamer and a decent amateur chess player), wargames are different in many respects than either chess or a game like Civ IV. In chess, you are required to develop certain skills in order to be proficient. Learn a few openings, learn to read the position of the board (with varying success!), develop your ability to calculate a couple moves ahead. All somewhat abstracted as the board does not reflect real life (unless you commute to work on an 8x8 grid). With Civ-style strategy games, you also have to develop certain skills, but again it's using a set of rules that don't necessarily follow life.

With war games, generally, you can approach the game with a certain amount of real-life historical perspective. That will get anyone by the basics of the game itself. You then learn the particulars of the ruleset, which are always created to simulate reality to some extent. To accel, you must then be well acquainted with the rules. Anyone who played ACL knows what I'm talking about ("I killed your infantry squad because Rule 3.5(b)(6) says my panzergrenadier has a special +4 modifier against entrenched soft targets.")

To be a great player, you must be good at the rules and at some type of strategic or tactical thinking.

So, pick a game and run with it. Watch out for War in the Pacific. It's not a game. It's a lifestyle

(in reply to General Quarters)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 11:01:12 AM

grarap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

grarap, I know enough about you to know that you are an obviously intelligent guy who likes history, including ACW history. And, although I have not played this game, I know enough about it to guage its level of complexity. On the basis of that, I would be astounded if you have any problem learning this game. I would personally be willing to refund your money if I am wrong. ;)

I think that's well-said. From my perspective (a big wargamer and a decent amateur chess player), wargames are different in many respects than either chess or a game like Civ IV. In chess, you are required to develop certain skills in order to be proficient. Learn a few openings, learn to read the position of the board (with varying success!), develop your ability to calculate a couple moves ahead. All somewhat abstracted as the board does not reflect real life (unless you commute to work on an 8x8 grid). With Civ-style strategy games, you also have to develop certain skills, but again it's using a set of rules that don't necessarily follow life.

With war games, generally, you can approach the game with a certain amount of real-life historical perspective. That will get anyone by the basics of the game itself. You then learn the particulars of the ruleset, which are always created to simulate reality to some extent. To accel, you must then be well acquainted with the rules. Anyone who played ACL knows what I'm talking about ("I killed your infantry squad because Rule 3.5(b)(6) says my panzergrenadier has a special +4 modifier against entrenched soft targets.")

To be a great player, you must be good at the rules and at some type of strategic or tactical thinking.

So, pick a game and run with it. Watch out for War in the Pacific. It's not a game. It's a lifestyle

That's what I've always imagined wargames to be - a lot of dice rolling and obscure rules. However, I'm having some trouble getting my head around WBTS, simply because there are so few unit types. Maritime battles aside, you just have infantry, cavalry (+ their untrained counterparts) and artillery to play around with. That's why it's all confusing me slightly. Is there really a lot of complexity behind all those units - each with unique strengths and differences against other unit types on different terrain etc? Is it the generals that add a distinct layer of difficulty to the game? Is it the politics? On the surface, WBTS looks deceptively simple, which is why I inquired as to its suitability for somebody who has no real experience in this genre (me

).

< Message edited by grarap -- 6/3/2008 11:21:40 AM >

(in reply to Crimguy)

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 12:12:45 PM

GShock

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The obscure rules are not so obscure...they're actually very simple and as i already said the real difficulty lies in the choices you must take in the background to make your strategy work. The die rolls are hidden normally, meaning you see the combat taking place and the hits/misses and losses but if you want you can investigate on every single die roll in a detailed view of how each unit performed.

Luckily, the system in all its complexity is very intuitive, which means, making a long story short, that you can intuitively know already what's gonna happen in combat. As always enemy is a factor. When you invade your opponent, a reaction phase spawns and your opponent will convey more troops to action.

Following the example of why the choices are difficult, a good player will have assembled good-led forces and so, most of these newjoiners will be able to affect the upcoming battle.

Terrain and weather do affect combat, do not forget that units also acquire both combat attrition and experience. You see just 6 unit types (land units) but these land units have different factors + 1 critical factor...the fact they have been spotted or not (unspotted units have critical advantages when joining battle with strong modifiers on their die rolls). Add to this the leadership effects and you see that with just 6 units, the game is already "complex".

As of the politics, there's a higher-level political side with choices to take when invading border states. All the game is about politics because you win-lose according to political points. USA must choose when to invade border states and according to WHEN, it pays a different cost in PP.

The losses in Political points, coming from commerce raiding (CSA) territory loss, invading a border states, combat victories/defeats, might not allow USA to have Lincoln re-elected or emancipation to be proclaimed. It is something you do not see at the beginning of the war but that proclaim the victor in the end. You can see Pyle's and Joel's AAR: Pyle is now compelled to move ahead faster and a defeat under these circumstances could prove fatal because the gap is very thin.

And the gap is not casual.

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 4:22:29 PM

Pford

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quote:

Terrain and weather do affect combat

Winter effects were mentioned. Does this vary by region? IOW, are they more severe in Indiana than, say, Florida?

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 10:37:01 PM

Raindog101

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grarap

Hey all. I would make a joke about wargame fans and virginity, but I'd probably just be indicting myself, as a self-confessed nerd. I caught sight of the WbtS promo video on a gaming site, was mightily intrigued and found my way here. By my single post count, you've probably guessed that I'm not a war gaming buff, although I played risk and chess as a child and enjoy the odd game of Civilisation IV. Problem is that I was never very good at any of the three (my best Civ IV leader ranking is 'Dan Quayle' - utterly abysmal ), and so I'm slightly concerned that this game is going to go straight over my head. Can any one of you wargaming veterans or developers reassure me that WbtS is going to be simple to pick up (although not necessarily master) and fun to play for fans of other turn-based strategy games? To those testers (): is the game merely cold, hard logic and maneuvering, or is there real excitement in watching battles unfold and commanding your little troops march around the world map? I really can't wait for the release!

Regards, Raph

IMO it would make things a lot easier to learn complex wargames (or any game for that matter) if the developers would incorparate the game manual as part of the game, accessable via a hotkey. Having trouble? hit "M" read the manual, continue on. In this way the manual could be easily updated when the game is patched.

I hate and despise PDF manuals and the newer printed manuals have to be read under a microscope and a 150W bulb.

_____________________________

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 10:39:45 PM

Erik Rutins

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Since WBTS runs as a windowed application, you can have the PDF manual open, zoomed to whatever view is good for you and switch from game to manual without any problems whatsoever. Also, I think the four in-game tutorials and 18 video tutorials will help a bit.

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/3/2008 10:55:58 PM

Raindog101

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Since WBTS runs as a windowed application, you can have the PDF manual open, zoomed to whatever view is good for you and switch from game to manual without any problems whatsoever. Also, I think the four in-game tutorials and 18 video tutorials will help a bit.

Christ Jesus, I hope so.

_____________________________

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RE: Suitable for virgins? - 6/4/2008 12:12:51 AM

rjh1971

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Eagle101

I hate and despise PDF manuals and the newer printed manuals have to be read under a microscope and a 150W bulb.

LOL, I agree always print the PDF manuals in A4 format pages.

As to the game learning curve it's not easy but anyone cand learn it if others did, Apollo11 one of the beta testers put it this way:

quote:

#1
Read the manual (yes - RTFM)

#2
Watch all videos

#3
Play tutorials

#4
Play scenarios

We all know that most of players usually "dive head first" to #4 without following the #1, #2 and #3 above but this will be rather hard with GGWbtS...

To which I added

quote:

I would dare saying that even after reading the manual, watching all videos, and playing tutorials, this three point process should be repeated before having any chance to beat the AI
This game has so many little details that it's going to be hard to grasp at first hand.

As an alpha/beta tester I had a hard time grasping the game procedures at the begining, but what you people are going to get has nothing to do with the alpha versions back in february/march 2007 the game is now a gem and is open to many possibilities, Jon Pyle did a surprising one to me him playing the CSA and me the Union, won't spill the beans on this one though

Resuming you will probably need to go over the Manual, and videos several times, if you guys have played AWD or WAW you may skip the tutorials, but not the manual and videos, Joel has done a wonderful work with them.

(in reply to Raindog101)

Post #: 26