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current version gamey tricks - 5/28/2008 8:19:47 PM   
damezzi

 

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What are those characteristics considered as gamey (things like ant units, p1/p2 assymmetries etc) which are still valid for the actual version of toaw. The problem is that documents which refer to those characteristics are dispersed in time and it's difficult to know what is still valid and what isn't.
If someone has the patient to list them... I think it would be useful to any beginner trying to filter tricks explained in strategy docs, even to establish house rules, as I use to do when I see that a move is extremely unrealistic.
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 5/29/2008 6:52:48 AM   
Karri

 

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Small airborne units divided and used to encircle enemy via airlift(companies surrounding divisions)...very gamey in my opinion.




I use it though.

(in reply to damezzi)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 5/29/2008 10:36:32 AM   
Veers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
Small airborne units divided and used to encircle enemy via airlift(companies surrounding divisions)...very gamey in my opinion.

Agreed,

quote:

I use it though.

and, unfortunately, ditto.

_____________________________

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If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.

(in reply to Karri)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 5/29/2008 1:40:08 PM   
larryfulkerson


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How about using an aircraft unit ( and no ground combat unit in a hex ) to "complete" the surround on an enemy unit.....I've seen it happen in FITE.  It works but seems gamey to me. 

But I use it.

(in reply to Veers)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 5/30/2008 7:46:19 AM   
L`zard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

How about using an aircraft unit ( and no ground combat unit in a hex ) to "complete" the surround on an enemy unit.....I've seen it happen in FITE.  It works but seems gamey to me. 

But I use it.


Beardy, Cheesy AND Gamey!



But I'll remember that!

(and would sure like to know how, LOL)


< Message edited by L`zard -- 5/30/2008 7:48:25 AM >


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RE: current version gamey tricks - 5/30/2008 12:58:50 PM   
Monkeys Brain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

How about using an aircraft unit ( and no ground combat unit in a hex ) to "complete" the surround on an enemy unit.....I've seen it happen in FITE. It works but seems gamey to me.

But I use it.



And then Russian player bring arty and BOOM.


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 5/30/2008 1:46:26 PM   
viridomaros

 

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depending on the situation.

1)air dropping divided paratroopers on the last turn to grab high value VP hexes to win the game on the last turn of the game. If it's because your opponent didn't want to garrison the objectives but that he could have afford it then i consider the dropping to be ok.
But if it's on a map where my opponent just doesn't have enough forces to garrison the VPs then i consider this to be gamey.

2) moving AA units, poor units prior anything else when suffering from interdiction.

3) abuse of the bug when a unit has the retreated status is considered gamey by some players.

4) abuse of the event engine by gamey moves.

5) and the must the two sturmgeschutz that destroyed one army.

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/3/2008 1:07:32 AM   
damezzi

 

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I remember reading about a way to use AA units in combat (don't remember how) in a very unrealistic way. Those are the worse tricks in my opinion, since trying to avoid them would restrict the way you can combine units.
would also like to know how did you use aircraft unit to complete the surround.

(in reply to viridomaros)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/3/2008 7:24:09 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


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The using of ant units should be prevented by a logical OOB in the scenario, one that deploys units of not too disimilar strength. For instance, not deploying Stu Bns in an scenario with division units.

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/3/2008 8:34:57 PM   
Veers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

The using of ant units should be prevented by a logical OOB in the scenario, one that deploys units of not too disimilar strength. For instance, not deploying Stu Bns in an scenario with division units.


While an OOB that removes undesireably small units is still a good idea, this is not the fix you would imagine. Even scenarios with units that are all the same strength (i.e. Division) could see a divided division attack a full 9 stack and see an ant attack with a ratio of 1:27. The game engine, itself, needs to be adjusted to eliminate this tactic fully.

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If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/3/2008 9:23:54 PM   
Legun

 

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Back after a collapse of my laptop...

My most annoying gamey effects:
- spoiling attacks (minimalize losses limited attack),
- led artillery fire (when one small unit is supported by a dozen of artillery units),
- fortified halftracks.

(in reply to Veers)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/3/2008 11:58:12 PM   
desert


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Really my cheapest trick is attacking sea stacks.

In the Aegean 2004 scenario, I destroyed the entire Turkish navy on turn 2 because Elmer put everything in 4 stacks. That didn't stop them from reconstituting 90% of them, though...

Attacking undefended airfields with a lot of artillery wouldn't be considered gamey, would it?

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/4/2008 1:07:36 AM   
morganbj


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quote:

Small airborne units divided and used to encircle enemy via airlift(companies surrounding divisions)...very gamey in my opinion.


Sorry, Karri, I think this is very possible in mobile warfare.  Unlike reality, it's probably much more likely to be successful in the game, but it's actually part of US Army doctrine.  Well, it was at one point.  It's just a form of vertical envelopment.  Sure, it might work one time out of ten in a real situation, but it can work.  With some large nemy units, who have been spooked by overwhelming force, unconventional tactics, or something, it could work every time.

Back in the distant past (the 1970's) we used to do it with small helo inserted lrrp/ranger units.  They would sieze bridges, set up blocking positions at choke points, and take out supplies, just before a major attack was begun.  It usually worked very well, especially if the bad guys thought they were stronger than they were.  They didn't have to actually prevent the enemy from retreating, they just had to make the enemy think that they could keep them from retreating.  I could tell you some stories .... but I won't.  Well, if you ask me ...

But, it ALWAYS works in TOAW, so for that reason, I guess I can agree somewhat.

I don't use it.  I don't like my valuable jump bunnies getting creamed by enemy fighters.

(in reply to desert)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/4/2008 3:10:30 AM   
desert


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Well, technically, there is the chance that the surrounded unit will just break out by evaporating the weakest attacking unit.

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/4/2008 5:30:26 AM   
morganbj


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That's true.  But that's the gamble.  Remember, the surrounded unit will seldom be able to turn 180 degrees and attack with full force.  Instead, division trains, headquarters and so forth will retreat first.  They're easy meat.  They'll wait for help before pressing the issue, if, of course, they have no security forces with them.  They probably won't unless they suspect you're there. When combat units begin to arrive to clear the escape route sometime later, they will typically arrive piecemeal.  If you put up a stout enough defense, causing confusion, and not giving away too much of your dispositions and strength, they'll think you're a little larger than you are and will try to develop the situation some, while waiting for more combat units to arrive to help.  Of course, if you do this badly, the security forces will just push you out of the way.  You're dead.

Now, IF the main attack is aggressive enough, units trying to disengage and retreat can not afford to release too many combat units to clear the escape route very easily.  And, that is once they know they need to.  If the surrounded unit's cohesion starts to break down, then they will be the one to "evaporate" in TOAW terms.  Remember, when a unit evaporates it is not necessarily 100% gone, it's merely 100% combat ineffective.  (And I don't want to argue the point that their men and equipment don't hit the replacement pools.  That's just an abstract way to account for scattered men and equipment after combat.  It's an "on average" way of dealing with combat losses.)

The problem is that if the main attack is not agressive enough, your enveloping units will be toast, and quickly.  Things have to go very, very well to pull it off, but it can be done.

In reality, as I said before, it may work that way once in ten.  It all depends on who you're against, how well trained they are, their current mental state, the effectiveness of their leadeship, the available terrain that can multiply your force, and your own ability to sustain the defense.  A lot of other things, too.  A version of this was effectively used in the Gulf War.  Yes, the units were a little larger, but there were many very light units in blocking positions, helping to cause chaos and confusion.  They did.  They played their part in causing the Iraqi army to "evaporate."

The point is, that it is NOT impossible, so it can't always be considered gamey.  I do agree that it's a little gamey, only because it's GOING to work in TOAW; it might not in reality.  If someone were to do it once in a game, I'd say it's just that well-planned surprise operation that veterans write books about.  If someone uses it twenty times in a game, I'd call them a cheaten' son-of-a-<expletive deleted>.

(in reply to desert)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/4/2008 2:55:08 PM   
Karri

 

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I am referring to a situation where a company is holding a single hex, in 10km per hex scale and thus stops a division from retreating. That's not even a blocking position.

Then again, a division being able to retreat to any hex is not exactly historical either...they need those roads for moving the supply, artillery etc. That's why in reality you didn't have to completely surround the enemy like you do in TOAW, just block the retreat routes.


For me it boils down to this: You call it gamye? Well it is a game afterall...

(in reply to morganbj)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/4/2008 3:12:25 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

I am referring to a situation where a company is holding a single hex, in 10km per hex scale and thus stops a division from retreating. That's not even a blocking position.



Ah, yes. But that all depends on the nature of the terrain doesn't it? And the company does not need to "hold" the entire hex, just the avenues of approach that the enemy will use. Would this work in a desert? I seriously doubt it. But it can work wherever there are terrain obstructions to movement, channeling units onto one, two, or three avenues of approach.

But, it is just a game, and is therefore and imperfect model of reality. I just don't think that because something is highly unlikely IRL, it's necessarily gamey. That's all.


(in reply to Karri)
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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/6/2008 6:35:21 AM   
damezzi

 

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Ok, it is a game, but it would be a nice feature to be able to use terrain to encircle units. Something based on number of combat turns and movement points needed to enter a terrain determining if unit would evaporate or be able to retreat.

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/16/2008 6:26:51 PM   
Heldenkaiser

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: damezzi

Ok, it is a game, but it would be a nice feature to be able to use terrain to encircle units. Something based on number of combat turns and movement points needed to enter a terrain determining if unit would evaporate or be able to retreat.


I actually thought it works that way. If the unit losing a combat can only retreat into a hex moving into which it does not have sufficient MP left, it will evap. I think. I think I've seen it happen (with high MP terrain hexes).

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RE: current version gamey tricks - 6/16/2008 8:34:28 PM   
damezzi

 

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I think there is this possibility, but I think it uses absolute MP values. That is, if units hasn't enough MPs left. But if a battle takes 3 rounds, I think that even if the unit has enough MPs left (absolute value), a relative value should be used, that is, more or less one third of the MPs should be considered. Terrain would then have more influence on deployment, giving more 'personality' to different regions.
I'm not a grognard, so I can't evaluate how much influence terrain should have on combat when different kinds of equipment are used, but it is always nice when terrain features and climate are strong variables, because it gives you the feeling that the region in which you are fighting is determinant. I even think that some kinds of 'extreme' terrains (like jungles) should have a strong influence on readiness on units not used to it. Perhaps it can be simulated by designers, I still didn't pay attention to it.

(in reply to Heldenkaiser)
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