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Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 2:27:13 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Unfortunately I let my wargaming ego overide my keester. Directly bypassed normal right to challenging and Fow. Ouch! Has been a learning experience. Anyone out there had any success at challeging.

So far haven't seen anyone saying this AI is too easy...

Take care folks : < )
Post #: 1
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 2:34:04 AM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		I'm playing CSA at normal. I've made some rookie errors (remember to use them cavalry!) and am getting smoked by the AI. Very tough opponent. He's doing amphibious invasions everywhere and I'm powerless to stop him.

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 2
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 2:48:01 AM   
dthornburg

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		I haven't had any success at Normal as USA. Have learned a lot but it doesn't seem to overcome the computer AI. And that is with the CPU having fog of war and I don't.

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 3
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 2:49:59 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, I didn't utilize the calvary near what I needed to do...I also don't utilize the navy like I should. I still struggle with the boats, need to reread on their proper use.

One thing for sure in this game; the room for error or hesitation to use your armies in certain fashions  signs your death warrent by the AI..no mercy that I can see.

(in reply to Crimguy)
Post #: 4
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 2:58:11 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		As far as I know, everyone who started playing on the test team was also beaten by the AI on Normal a few times. Once you get the hang of it and start winning, you'll feel a pretty good sense of accomplishment. When you can beat it on Normal reliably (which is not easy) then try Challenging. Jumping right into Challenging is basically impossible. The Challenging AI still beats me, FWIW.

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 5
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:02:38 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Eric,

Has anyone on the test team or otherwise been able to stand up to Hard or Impossible? Just curious, like a really gonna get to those levels anytime soon, NOT!!!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 6
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:03:44 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Whoops, spelled your name wrong, so sorry...

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 7
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:06:09 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjarred
Has anyone on the test team or otherwise been able to stand up to Hard or Impossible? Just curious, like a really gonna get to those levels anytime soon, NOT!!!


I'd guess there are at least a couple of players that could, but I don't know for sure. Joel would be the better one to ask as I'm pretty sure if anyone can do it he could.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 8
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:19:16 AM   
dthornburg

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		Well, so far I have tried 5 times and had no luck past mid to early '63. At that point the CSA production/trade juggernaut pretty much took over. I guess I am going to have to give up on Normal mode or stop using CPU production.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 9
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:30:54 AM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		Same here. Playing normal ive lost two games(decisive defeats to the AI-confeds). Still learning though. Enjoying the game very much so.
quote:

ORIGINAL: dthornburg

I haven't had any success at Normal as USA. Have learned a lot but it doesn't seem to overcome the computer AI. And that is with the CPU having fog of war and I don't.



_____________________________

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(in reply to dthornburg)
Post #: 10
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:33:14 AM   
dthornburg

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		Well, as frustrating as it has been playing USA in normal mode I still keep trying. So I guess that is a good sign.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 11
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:33:25 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		At least you got to 63', I threw the towel in at mid 62';  Four times for me, I hope normal is more forgiving, but from the posts so far, forgiveness aint in the cards...

Take care   : <  )

(in reply to dthornburg)
Post #: 12
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:39:50 AM   
dthornburg

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		Oh, the first three tries I stopped in '62 because it was apparent that the campaign was going no where. The '63 game I kept playing till mid-64 to see if I could extract vengeance on R.E.Lee. However, he kept showing up all over the map with outrageous stacks of forces (usually 100+). One turn he was in Florida spanking my Jacksonville expedition then in the next turn or so he was outside Washington DC repulsing Meades' army of 100+ troops I nurtured to regain the Capital with a force even larger than that. The turn before that Sherman's army (which had finally gotten initiative after 6 months of doing nothing) vanished when he and Grant got spanked by a force that moved in during reaction phase from somewhere unknown. If the game had continued I think I would have fired Sherman.

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 13
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:45:43 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, I felt like I was throwing enough walls infront of Lee's army, and getting that false sense of stability, and them "Wham" the south seemed to have already guessed my move and KO'd me cold....Like you, back to the drawing board. 

(in reply to dthornburg)
Post #: 14
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 3:58:31 AM   
Bo Rearguard


Posts: 492
Joined: 4/7/2008
From: Basement of the Alamo
Status: offline 		Playing as the CSA, I keep seeing General McClellan popping up everywhere. Pushing armies forward very aggressively even in 1861. Where is the hell is the Pinkerton Detective Agency to tell him I have twice his troop strength when I don't?

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist ...." Union General John Sedgwick, 1864

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 15
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 4:19:28 AM   
dpazuk


Posts: 119
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		It's nice to know I am in such good company

It is March of '64 of my first game on Normal vs Confederate AI and I have a little over 700 VP to the Confederates 1110.

Some things I feel need improvement on my end (as Union) from what I have gathered reading other posts:

(1) I need to handle my own production to support my own overall plan of attack
(2) I need to use my navy/amphibious operations more effectively - counter raiders to offset VP bleeding...3 points per turn really adds up.
(3) Make better use of my cavalry forces - both for screening and scouting
(4) Make better AC choices (eg. Sheridan, Grant, Lyon in the west, Sherman in the East?)
(5) To offset reaction rules, attack simultaneously within the same state..force the AI to choose which force to defend against.

Just a start...


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Blah Blah Blah

(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 16
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 5:01:37 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		I made the assumption that if I placed a massive force or forces in a key area, it had to make the south compensate and pull troops from elsewhere to handle the onslaught.  ( I just plain figured they could not have that many forces able to handle a massive push! ) Wrong!!! I just could not exploit the south anywhere on the map using this strategy. 

It always seem to keep enough in reserve out of my sight to offset what I wanted to really do;  basically weaken and destabilize their distant lines and then be able to poke holes and move in for a flanking kill. Simplistic in nature, but a bone head strategy to say the least...

I would have to agree, coordinated and simultaneous attacks in the same state just may cause the AI to leave a weakness that one could exploit.  A complex and strong AI does not bow down to the simple tactics of its enemy ( ME, MYSELF and I ).  This is the best AI I have encountered.  They really did a superb job with it....

I didn't utilize my calvary to root out hidden troops, thinking it wasn't necessary to do; and like you stated above, effective use of the navy is key.  I am now having to rethink all of my old AI strategies of previous games and find where I am missing the mark. 

On the games face value, it seems not so complex, but after getting pasted enough times, one realizes that as the developing team has reiterated so many times; is that you really have to look, study and then utilize each leader's ability and stats to their utmost potential...otherwise you penalize the bulk of your armies. 

(in reply to dpazuk)
Post #: 17
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 5:57:27 AM   
dthornburg

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjarred

I made the assumption that if I placed a massive force or forces in a key area, it had to make the south compensate and pull troops from elsewhere to handle the onslaught.  ( I just plain figured they could not have that many forces able to handle a massive push! ) Wrong!!! I just could not exploit the south anywhere on the map using this strategy. 

It always seem to keep enough in reserve out of my sight to offset what I wanted to really do;  basically weaken and destabilize their distant lines and then be able to poke holes and move in for a flanking kill. Simplistic in nature, but a bone head strategy to say the least...

I would have to agree, coordinated and simultaneous attacks in the same state just may cause the AI to leave a weakness that one could exploit.  A complex and strong AI does not bow down to the simple tactics of its enemy ( ME, MYSELF and I ).  This is the best AI I have encountered.  They really did a superb job with it....

I didn't utilize my calvary to root out hidden troops, thinking it wasn't necessary to do; and like you stated above, effective use of the navy is key.  I am now having to rethink all of my old AI strategies of previous games and find where I am missing the mark. 

On the games face value, it seems not so complex, but after getting pasted enough times, one realizes that as the developing team has reiterated so many times; is that you really have to look, study and then utilize each leader's ability and stats to their utmost potential...otherwise you penalize the bulk of your armies. 


I am pretty sure I tried the simultaneous attack thing. That only works when the enemy has to chose to split it's forces. When they have enough troops to counter multiple strikes at once then your screwed.


(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 18
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 6:02:18 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Another strategy to try is this, works for either side but I'll describe it as the Union - as the Union's cavalry improves, mass it under a good cavalry commander (Sheridan if you can spare him) and use it to Raid the area of a Confederate army you are about to attack. Keep raiding until you destroy their rail lines and hopefully those around them. Then attack. This will limit the ability to reinforce them during reaction and give you a more free hand in dealing with just the enemy forces nearby.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to dthornburg)
Post #: 19
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 6:10:43 AM   
tran505

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 11/11/2007
Status: offline 		When I played the Union I was glad I did NOT have the Pinkertons. After finding 100,000+ confederates waiting for me at Manassas, it made McClellan's "slows" look like brilliant and sensible strategy!

(in reply to dthornburg)
Post #: 20
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 6:13:43 AM   
dthornburg

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 7/18/2004
Status: offline 		Sounds like a sensible strategy. Thanks Erik.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 21
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 6:38:56 AM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		jjarred, I beat the AI on hard, but I cant beat Joel...lol...Richmond next turn we'll see if I can...


Jon

(in reply to dthornburg)
Post #: 22
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 7:08:46 AM   
dpazuk


Posts: 119
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Another strategy to try is this, works for either side but I'll describe it as the Union - as the Union's cavalry improves, mass it under a good cavalry commander (Sheridan if you can spare him) and use it to Raid the area of a Confederate army you are about to attack. Keep raiding until you destroy their rail lines and hopefully those around them. Then attack. This will limit the ability to reinforce them during reaction and give you a more free hand in dealing with just the enemy forces nearby.

Regards,

- Erik


Brilliant!

Thanks Erik. I was wondering what one could do to limit and/or counter enemy reaction.

Simultaneous attacks in the same area seemed logical, but I don't know why I didn't think of this most obvious use of cavalry. I have definately been neglecting my cavalry by not utilizing it to it's full effect.

Knowing where the enemy is (scouting), isolating enemy troop concentrations (cutting the South in two, then three, and hampering the enemy's ability to move reaction forces (raiding) is key.

< Message edited by dpazuk -- 6/19/2008 7:11:10 AM >

_____________________________

Blah Blah Blah

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Post #: 23
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 7:45:29 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		I'm loving the fact that the AI is tough! I'm still on my first game, on Normal, vs the Union AI...and it's a close one. We're roughly tied in PPs, around 880 each, in the fall of 1862. I've won a couple strategic victories and I'm thinking maybe I have a chance to win now. But on the map the situation sure doesn't look great. I'm just loving it. :)

(in reply to dpazuk)
Post #: 24
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 8:23:29 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I could usually win on hard level, although I haven't played it in a few months and things did change during development. I did play a lot though. I'm sure Jan and Jon can beat the computer on hard, but I'm not sure if any of the other testers can. I know several testers can win on Challenging. I think the AI will give people a lot of fun game time, especially since once you get good then you can try random leaders to mix things up as well.

I do want to clear up one thing. Raiding areas to damage rail will likely not impact reaction moves, because the rail can be repaired during the reaction phase. Cav raiding damaging rails is our abstract way of dealing with cavalry cutting supply lines (since it costs supplies to repair the rails). We didn't intend for raiding to slow reactions. However, there is a way to slow reacting armies. If you are in a position to move some forces into an area that enemy forces might have to move through, it will cost an extra MP for the units to move through the area. Jon did this in our game. He moved a small force from New Bern to Goldsboro which meant that my units moving south from Raleigh and points north to Wilmington had to pay an extra MP to move through Goldsboro. That was enough to keep some of my units from reacthing the main battle. That reminds me to say that for the south it sure is nice to have some infantry skill 4 leaders in positions to react to enemy attacks (they can cover a lot of ground, especially if they are good leaders that have a good chance of getting initiative).


(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 25
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 8:25:37 AM   
jjarred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/19/2004
Status: offline 		Pyledriver:

You have my respect...I get 'stomped' like a spider at a 'Womens Tap-Dance Convention' on normal level.  One day, I just hope to beat the normal AI.

Take Care.   : < )

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 26
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 4:39:15 PM   
rjh1971


Posts: 4919
Joined: 12/13/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjarred

Eric,

Has anyone on the test team or otherwise been able to stand up to Hard or Impossible? Just curious, like a really gonna get to those levels anytime soon, NOT!!!


I onced played the Union with a partisan & leader help of +4 for the AI (that would be impossible iirc), and even though I took most of the Southern territory and was clearly winning, at least if you consider what was left of the South, by september 64 I was just below 800 pp and still hadn't declare the emancipation, only once I got an strategic victory and when I did my pp points were under a 1000.
I was going to lose the elections so I didn't finish it.
It was dispairing I was winning but losing at the same time.

Maybe Joel, Jan or Jon might have done it.

< Message edited by rjh1971 -- 6/19/2008 4:40:34 PM >

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(in reply to jjarred)
Post #: 27
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 5:32:22 PM   
JanSorensen

 

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline 		I havent played on impossible. Winning on Hard is hard enough :) I guess I should play the released version to see if I can beat that on Hard as well - its been a long time since I played.

(in reply to rjh1971)
Post #: 28
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 6:57:03 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Shoot!  I think the AI is a piece of cake....

...I'm also delusional.

Actually, I've been creamed more than strawberry shortcake.

(in reply to JanSorensen)
Post #: 29
RE: Humbled, Humbled - 6/19/2008 6:59:02 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Oh, it's nice to know I'm not an idiot.  At least not alone as one.  We band of brothers, we who watch our troops dissolve, and our land go enemy.  And we come back for more...and love it.

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 30
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