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French 47mm AT - 10/2/2000 11:52:00 AM   
ddearing

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Bryan, TX USA
Status: offline 		I believe the French 47mm AT gun is incorrect. It is using the same gun as on their tanks, while the information I've seen indicates that the AT gun was the SA 37/39 APX, which was a different weapon that only fired APCR. Mind you, the current weapon is quite nasty enough. Here's a link to a site I found with specs for the different French 47mm (and a bunch of other weapons): http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/weapons/french_guns3.html

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- 10/3/2000 6:20:00 AM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Speaking of French tanks. I'm wondering if any others think that the ROF '4' is high for a one-man turret. I was thinking '2' might be more accurate. Well '1' is probably the historically correct answer, but that doesn't make much of a game. Thoughts?

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Post #: 2
- 10/3/2000 8:59:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Remember each turn is several minutes. I think even I could manage to fire a round or two a minute... The convention used is subtract 1 from the ROF due a two man turret and a targeting value of 2 and two off for a one man turret and depending on the total crew size, many have a targeting value of 1 (meaning they may have shots, but won't hit very much if the vehicle moves very far. Checking the OObs Most French anks use teh 47/L32 SA 35 while the Sa39 is used for the AT gun. My assumption is APC (Armor priecing capped) is used in the tank gun which has superior ballistic properties to the straight AP which was the predominant ammo to my knowledge int the SA39 (it shattered very easily too). Hence the penalty to the SA 39's penetration. I see nothing on the page given or other refs to indicate the weapon had APCR - are you confusing APC (no R) Armor piercing capped with APCR (Armor piercing composite rigid)...info on such is tough to get though, so interested in ref to prove otherwise [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited October 02, 2000).]

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Post #: 3
- 10/3/2000 10:18:00 PM   
Grumble

 

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Omaha, NE, USA
Status: offline 		Seems reasonable. However, I would point out that the one-guy in the turret is doing more in those few minutes/turn than "just" acquiring/selcting appropriate weapon/loading/firing/adjusting aim (like that's not enough): Watching for pop-up targets, directing the other members of the crew, watching for signals from the command vehicle.

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"...these go up to eleven."
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Post #: 4
- 10/3/2000 11:22:00 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		There is also the effect of crew experience to consider - given the typically low expereience ratings the French have - those 4 s often end up being 2s. Its an abstratc thing that when compare to a Stuart or Crusader with ROF of 7 , seems a pretty hefty penalty. There were times when these tanks gave a good account of themselves, and while not suited to Blitzkrieg warfare, teh French did have suitable doctrine for the employment of these vehicles that led them to believe - in the role they intended for them - to be adequate. That that role was trumped by german tactics doesn't meant the vehicles were useless, just that they were restrited to very limited roles. Since we can't enforce doctrine on the players, we have to compromise between what the different limitations were on there use. I think the current ROF assignments, together with targeting, RF and FC while arguable on a point basis perhaps, gives a good overall feel to the various differences between the units. Its a valid argument, and one can always find evidence pro and con making some units almost completely useless, or dominant. But it is a game and balance is needed. IF you want to argue your point withthe guys making the final tweaks to the OOB's I'll be glad to add you to the mailing list.

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Post #: 5
- 10/3/2000 11:30:00 PM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Actually, in referrence to the AT-Gun Paul, I'm afraid he was right, I had given them all the wrong guns!! I fixed it in my version, and had to add the gun for the AT version, but at the time of their inclusion, there was not much to go on!!;-( No biggee, they are all pretty similar, except for the one low velocity version, and the AT was a better hole puncher!! I'll see if someone is doing the French oob, and bring it up? ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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Post #: 6
- 10/4/2000 5:14:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Which is wrong - the tank guns or the AT guns...I thought the SA 39 was the AT gun?

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Post #: 7
- 10/4/2000 6:50:00 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Paul, the 47mm tank guns. The D1,and D2 should have the weapon#28 47mm SA 34,(Which I created), while the rest of the 47mm armed get the #21 47mm SA35 model. The ATG gets the 47mm SA 37/39,#24.These numbers are however in my personal oob's. Basicaly, the Char B's, somua, and D2(L) get #21, ATG gets existing #24 renamed SA 37/39, and the others get the #28, which doesn't exist in the current oob. ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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Post #: 8
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