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RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:19:17 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


By the way, I am not mindless, and I do not rant. Occasionally, I like to inject a little fun into these discussions (which are most frequently pointless and fruitless). I cannot be an apologist for those slow of wit and devoid of humor.

Thanks to you, too.


For the point in question I disagree, is was a mindless rant. If you want a discussion then stay and discuss the topic, overwise take your "humour" elsewhere. I am not going to be an apologist for a sarcastic jerk either.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 181
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:21:54 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


Do you have any evidence that your "creative" mission routing technique was actually followed by Japanese bomber missions?



Do you have any to contradict it?

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 182
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:25:13 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Well, I'm done poking fun at Ike, and I apologize if any of my nonsense went too far and offended.

I just couldn't get beyond the realization (self-induced, of course) that this whole discussion was silly and getting sillier.

As Radar O'Reilly said to Frank Burns after he made fun of Radar for sleeping with a Teddy bear, "I'm hoping to do better, sir."


Do try a little harder then.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 183
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:27:35 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		You know, folks, ...

forget it. I ain't goin' there.

Bye, DEB, I hope you enjoy your little one-handed game.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 184
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:29:32 AM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Flying at night is not remotely easily done by dead reckoning. Minore things like air pressure changes, windspeed changes, and cross winds required pilots, prior to Loran, to have lots of visual waypoints for missions beyond around 200 miles, because every course change could be GUARANTEED to be accompanied by some sort of wind direction/strength or air-pressure induced error.


Makes one wonder why any sane person would try it. As for including it in an historical Simulation......?

quote:

The USN used radio to allow returning pilots to fix the locations of their CVs. The RAF used same for navigational guidance for night bombers. Other allied night patrol craft used radio beacon homing and celestial navigation.


Apparently the japs had these too!

quote:

Single seat aircraft were, absent strong radio navigation, almost hopelessly at risk trying to navigate at night during WW2.


If they were absent!


< Message edited by DEB -- 6/27/2008 12:54:36 AM >

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 185
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:35:18 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I apologize to nobody for jesting on the forum as it's all meant in fun and not nastily.  This forum is, after all, for our free exchange of ideas and enjoyment.


I'll have to take you much less seriously from now on then!
One persons sharp wit is anothers sarcasim. They say sarcasim is the LOWEST form of wit, try not to get too low.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 186
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:41:09 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


Since, I've tried to keep it light and, as you put it, confine my remarks to "fun," unless the subject calls for serious discussion, but I still try to be polite and respectful.

It's tough sometimes, though. There are some eyeballs that just beg for the "sharp stick" treatment.


If "that's" been "polite & respectful" you must be a real sick sarcastic b******d at heart.



(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 187
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:50:48 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I agree, but our thin skinned members need to grow up and learn to laugh, sometimes even at themselves.


One should not need to be thickskined to partake in a forum ( or in life generally ). Perhaps one day someones "wit" will upset you.
I will try not to laugh too much.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 188
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 12:58:50 AM   
DEB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You know, folks, ...

forget it. I ain't goin' there.

Bye, DEB, I hope you enjoy your little one-handed game.


I though I saw you pop in & out! Did you not enjoy my little bit of "humour"? Bye bye!

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 189
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 1:27:36 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Deb

I've been upset by stuff and I get over it.  I try and keep things in their proper prospective.


_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 190
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 2:34:51 AM   
Ike99


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quote:

Flying at night is not remotely easily done by dead reckoning. Minore things like air pressure changes, windspeed changes, and cross winds required pilots...


No one said it was easy or that it did not take training. But, that´s why these people are called ¨Pilots¨, because they have had training and can do it.

quote:

Single seat aircraft were, absent strong radio navigation, almost hopelessly at risk trying to navigate at night during WW2.


This is not true now, was not true in WW2 and was not true prior to WW2.

But pasternakski is correct that this thread has become sillier and sillier. The unbelievers have went from carrier night ops to night bombing hit percentage to now..

Now...

Now...

The Japanese couldn´t even find a fixed point at night without a miracle of navigation!!



Very impressive. All I can say then is the Japanese certainly worked a lot of miracles of night navigation in WW2.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 6/27/2008 2:36:31 AM >

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 191
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 3:11:28 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Very impressive. All I can say then is the Japanese certainly worked a lot of miracles ...


This reminds me of a line from "In Harm's Way" when John Wayne tells a subordinate that the Japanese Navy had a habit of doing the impossible.

But "In Harms Way" was only a movie, not a computer simulation of dog fighting in the Pacific in WW II where reality never really gets in your way


_____________________________

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"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 192
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 3:27:13 AM   
Ike99


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quote:

But "In Harms Way" was only a movie, not a computer simulation of dog fighting in the Pacific in WW II where reality never really gets in your way


Eh huh, those pictures look like a computer simulation to you? Besides, anyone who tells me they are a pilot yet can´t follow a coast line in daylight is full of BS.

A couple real pilots got a good laugh at that BTW.

So is anyone who tells me a single engine aircraft is hopless without radio navigation at night. I´ve sat right next to a real pilot at night in such aircraft and seen it done so stick it in a dark spot.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 193
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 3:39:11 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
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From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		No Ike, not those pictures, these pictures.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

.








_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 194
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 4:04:22 AM   
Ike99


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Status: offline 		You knew what pictures I was talking about Joe. Famous case in WW2...any pilots here want to explain to me how Rudolph Hess flew almost 4 hours and 900 miles, half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?

He was a pilot using DR, that´s how.







Attachment (1)

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 195
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 4:16:57 AM   
Joe D.


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From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		And don't forget these; wan't this your original argument for dead reckoning at night?
BTW, that was my original quote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

But at night you would have to find it first, that's the hard part, assuming the field is blacked-out. I imagine a full moon would make a difference.


Assuming Japanese pilots knew how to use a map, compass and clock I think they could find it.

Screen shots from IL2 Pacific Fighters. I think I can mention that here because Matrix sells an expansion for it.









_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 196
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 5:05:26 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Besides, anyone who tells me they are a pilot yet can´t follow a coast line in daylight is full of BS.

A couple real pilots got a good laugh at that BTW.

I don't really want to post here again, but as you see fit to engage in personal insults and derision, I feel that I must.

What I really said was, "That coast to which you refer is, as you should be able to note from the map you supply, difficult enough to follow in the daylight while merely reading your post, let alone at night in real life."

I was, obviously, answering your assertion that this was all so very easy for a pilot flying at night. I pointed out that your own map shows a convoluted coastline with many terrain features offshore that could be confusing and misleading, particularly at night.

Now, again. I have no further interest in this "discussion." I ask that you please refrain from further personal attacks.

Thank you.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 197
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 5:17:42 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

...any pilots here want to explain to me how Rudolph Hess flew almost 4 hours and 900 miles, half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?

He was a pilot using DR, that´s how.


A former airline pilot, Hess was also an avid astrologer, so perhaps he was guided by the stars that night.

BTW his flight wasn't that perfect; he broke an ankle after parachuting from his Me 110.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 198
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 5:22:54 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

I don't really want to post here again, but as you see fit to engage in personal insults and derision, I feel that I must.


Your joking right?

quote:

Well, I'm done poking fun at Ike, and I apologize if any of my nonsense went too far and offended.


If you start shooting at someone one can not complain about the return fire can they?

quote:

BTW his flight wasn't that perfect; he broke an ankle after parachuting from his Me 110.


Wouldn´t matter if he crashed nose first into a smoking hole in the ground. Still shows what can be done in night navigation without radio.

Besides, there would be a thousand single engine pilots laughing their arses off who have smuggled into USA at 100 feet in the night and landed on unmarked dry lake beds and salt flats if they read this thread!

I guess someone should have told them, and the Japanese such a thing is impossible.



< Message edited by Ike99 -- 6/27/2008 5:34:59 PM >

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 199
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 8:14:50 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?


I think that example illustrates very nicely why the Japanese did not attempt long range night raids against targets of any kind. I'd be impressed by such feats of dead reckoning if he'd landed within a kilometer of his objective. A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

Thanks for the anedcote. You could not have undermined your own claim more effectively than you just did.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 200
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 8:18:04 PM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

If they were absent!


They were. The RF beacons on Japanese and US CVs were for return flight only, not for navigating your way to a target. That is because CVs moved around, so the radio transmitters were not fixed with respect to the target. The only way radio navigation in WW2 could be used to direct an attacker to a target at night was when both the RF beacon source and the target were fixed. Thus Bomber Command was able to direct bombers at land targets at night whereas the Japanese were unable to do so.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 201
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 10:48:32 PM   
ILCK

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?


I think that example illustrates very nicely why the Japanese did not attempt long range night raids against targets of any kind. I'd be impressed by such feats of dead reckoning if he'd landed within a kilometer of his objective. A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

Thanks for the anedcote. You could not have undermined your own claim more effectively than you just did.



Excellent point and also what we have to understand is what those pictures. Show, flak firing at night? Sure. We all know about Washing Machine Machine Charlie. Did Americans shoot at him, yes. Did he cause damage...not really and that wasn't the intent.

Examples of "night raids" from a pilot on the Canal:

Friday 16 April
106th Day, 259 Days to come

Took off 0730 rendezvous with 18 SBDs and proceeded to Cactus via SCAT DC-3 Arrived 1130. Slept most of way. Saw the gang & got the word. Maj. Britt was killed in take off. Coffeen is missing & Spoide got the first Jap. The Squadron has been under fire but so far I haven't really missed much. Will write a letter tonight maybe. Air raid tonight. Dropped some bombs. Shrapnel & flak fell heavily. We sat it out in a foxhole (dugout) not much damage. Managed to write V.J. & mother.

Sunday 18 April
108th Day, 257 to come

Did nothing this AM. Stood by for alert from 0500. At 1500 went to Knucklehead patrol, up for 3 hrs. First hop in weeks. Tired me, but I learned the area. Can hardly sit down tonight, alert again tomorrow AM. Charley came over tonight in a big way. Raids at 1930, 2130, 2340, 0415, at 0415 night fighter got one. He went down in flames. Dropped lots of bombs, none too close to us. Only got in fox hole twice, both being 1930 raids. Came in from several directions. Not much damage done.

...again, can you fly to somewhere near a target and drop bombs. Yes. Can you effectively hit a target....no. That 33% hit rate is laughable.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 202
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 11:26:38 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Wouldn´t matter if he crashed nose first into a smoking hole in the ground. Still shows what can be done in night navigation without radio ...


It would have mattered if he was supposed to bomb something first; do you recall the original intent of this thread?

"he slams the PM airfield night by night with 300 or more kate/vals from his carriers..even through rain or thunderstorm. and the cap is simply ineffective against such raids. even with 50 FB flying night cap, the results of night CAP and operational loses are nearly zero for him.

from what we now, the japanese started only ONE major night attack from their carriers in 1942 in the battle of coral sea. this raid resulted in a disaster with 21 of 27 japanese planes lost."


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 203
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 11:36:44 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

I think that example illustrates very nicely why the Japanese did not attempt long range night raids against targets of any kind. I'd be impressed by such feats of dead reckoning if he'd landed within a kilometer of his objective. A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.


What you wrote here proves you know nothing of flying or navigation. You´re completely ignorant of this subject matter. There´s no other way to put that.

quote:

Thanks for the anedcote. You could not have undermined your own claim more effectively than you just did.


Ahha...people with much greater understanding than you of the subject matter comprehend what I´m saying, or, at least know the Japanese could find, and bomb airfields at night.

Uncommon Valor Game Manual-(the Japanese were especially fond of night bombing missions)



< Message edited by Ike99 -- 6/27/2008 11:40:11 PM >

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 204
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/27/2008 11:38:04 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

That 33% hit rate is laughable.


What would be even more laughable are the game reviews for CF if you had your way. A Japanese bomber hit percentage of 0-1% from 3,000ft.. provided they could even find the runway, hmmm 10% chance.

That´s what would be really funny.

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 6/28/2008 12:00:40 AM >

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 205
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 12:56:09 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

What you wrote here proves you know nothing of flying or navigation.


Your claim is, as is your habit, incorrect and without foundation.

quote:

You´re completely ignorant of this subject matter.


It is more than evident to everyone here that you are the most ignorant person offering opinions about the feasibility of night bombing in these forums.

quote:

Ahha...people with much greater understanding than you of the subject matter comprehend what I´m saying, or, at least know the Japanese could find, and bomb airfields at night.


I'm still waiting for compelling evidence of same. Washing machine Charley didn't even manage to HIT Henderson field. On several occasions, WMCs ordnance fell inside Japanese lines. Beyond that, your desperation to cite strategically ineffective, wildly inaccurate, feeble efforts of a single two-place float plane with something like a compelling capability to launch night raids (vis the original point of this thread), MOST amusing. Do carry on though.

quote:

What would be even more laughable are the game reviews for CF if you had your way. A Japanese bomber hit percentage of 0-1% from 3,000ft.. provided they could even find the runway, hmmm 10% chance.

That´s what would be really funny.


Actually, that would likely exaggerate the accuracy of Japanese night bombing capability. It would, however, indeed be funny to see a well-modeled sim of Japanese night bombing made available, and then to watch someone expecting any results of consequence pull their hair out reading the AARs.




_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 206
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 2:22:07 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Uncommon Valor Game Manual-(the Japanese were especially fond of night bombing missions)


10.1 Air Sequence of Play
Air Operations happen twice a day - there are Night and Day air operations sequences with the Day sequence broken into morning, afternoon and air transport phases. The night sequence is briefer because less aerial activity occurred at night. Only air units that have been given “Night Operations” status will conduct operations during the night (the Japanese were especially fond of night bombing missions).

Notice there is nothing said re the effectivesness of night bombing, just that the Japanese had a habit of doing it.

This could simply be another example of the Japanese fondness for following battle plans to the letter, even if they didn't work. Shattered Sword described this as an "unhealthy rigidity" regarding the sanctity of their battle plans, i.e., Op MI (p. 411).


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 207
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 2:25:53 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Hey guys can we keep this thread going in a less hostile manner.  Most of us here in the forum would appreciate it.

Did the IJA or IJN ever do anything other than an occasional night air raid?  There was no night bombing campaign.  If the Japanese could have achieved good results and have had low loses wouldn't it have made sense that they would've done it more?  If you take the UV time frame and look at the fight for Guadalcanal then you'll see that bombs fell by day and the Tokyo Express delivered ordinance at night in the attempts to close Henderson Field.

It doesn't matter how much training is put into something if you don't do it.  To say that the Japanese were well schooled in night ops is one thing, but to say they could've done it doesn't demonstrate the ability.  They chose not to carry out the night ops for good reasons.  Ops loses would've been high and accuracy would've been low. 

You can go around and around on this subject, but history speaks louder than misguided opions. 


_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 208
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 3:27:10 AM   
barkhorn45

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 3/7/2008
Status: offline 		I know it was'nt a bombing mission per se but were'nt a couple of peggy bomber's crash landed on the u.s.airfield on okinawa AT NIGHT from which suicidal japanese engineers proceeded to destroy a number of aircraft before they were killed?
{see i know how to make paragraphs}And these were IJAAF aircraft with no radar and no ground guidance as far as the info states sounds pretty pin-point to me but i could be wrong.

< Message edited by barkhorn45 -- 6/28/2008 3:28:18 AM >

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 209
RE: unrealistic air combat... - 6/28/2008 4:01:41 AM   
barkhorn45

 

Posts: 245
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Status: offline 		"A former airline pilot, Hess was also an avid astrologer, so perhaps he was guided by the stars that night"
   the humor[don't ask why the writing looks like this can't figure out what i did to cause this effect]is interesting but the fact that a former ww1 pilot ,not an airline pilot,who had'nt flown in decades except for a few solo flights prior to his final flight could land within 14{actually}miles of his destination at night and at that distance is pretty impressive notwithstanding his politics

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