In 7.1 - grenades - working right?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> In 7.1 - grenades - working right?

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In 7.1 - grenades - working right? - 4/2/2002 4:43:14 AM

Venger

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From: Home of the 90mm M46, keeper of the Can O'Whoopass
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Curiously, because I don't remember grenades being very effective before, but NOW, they seem to get the 1 casualty guarantee - you will kill 1 soldier, period. I just did an 8 hour battle with 180 tanks, 20 AFVs, and about 3500 men, and I would estimate nearly 85% of all exchanges involving grenades yielded precisely 1 casualty, regardless of % hit chance.

Any thoughts or observations?

Thanks, 7.1 kicks ***...

Venger

Post #: 1

- 4/2/2002 5:06:12 AM

Warrior

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From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
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This is because each time a grenade landed, there was one brave soul who jumped on it before it exploded, saving his comrades from injury and giving Hollywood more script material.:D

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Retreat is NOT an option.

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- 4/2/2002 5:21:32 AM

Charles2222

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Venger: I've noticed precisely the same thing, and my guess was the ratio was 90%. Since I've started 7.1 I've been playing as the USSR against Finland in a WWII campaign. The grenades are so effective (nice new graphic when they're thrown now) that I have a phrase for them: Grenades, the wonder weapon that does wonders. And this is the crummy Soviets I'm using. I can't tell you how many times there was an attack where the rifle/SMG, followed by an LMG, would do nothing, and then kapow the grenades would get a kill. Usually I get the Finn ski squads to retreat in that precise manner too, but then they often seem to retreat after just one loss. I've noticed they have a kill rating of 9 (maybe it should be down to 6 or 7?), but on the positive side they do seem to generally have a penetration rating of 19.

On a sidenote, Paul told me before why ski squads, as SP is designed, couldn't clear mines, but I do wonder why they also don't have smoke ammo. Can't speak for anything but the GE ski troops, but they sure haven't had them. Anyone know how to alter the OOBs to allow them some (I know it's not a question of not being able to dismount, such as with clearing mines, because the Cossacks have plenty of smoke grenades).

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- 4/2/2002 5:37:02 AM

Leto II

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From: Graz, Austria
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I thought that the reason for the ski troops acting as they do was because the OOB treats them like a truck, or some other light vehicle (which is how they have such good movement)

Since trucks can't clear mines or pop smoke, the ski troops can't either...

I am no authority on the subject though and I may well be incorrect.

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Post #: 4

- 4/2/2002 8:48:03 AM

Charles2222

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Leto II: From what I recall from Paul, you might as well regard Cossacks and ski troops basically the same, because they both are "mounted". They can't dismount, so it wasn't thought correct to allow them to clear mines (and who knows, maybe cossacks do, I've just never expected they would. Naturally, and guy on skis, or on horseback, while he's there, can't diffuse mines, but that sure doesn't limit their smoke capabilities. I used to think as you do, that ski troops were treated as a truck class, but it certainly seems as though thinking them as mounted is a clearer case.

Regarding another mounted class, motorcycles, I'm sure they come with smoke too. Whether they can clear mines I wouldn't care to guess either, but if the mounted class is consistent regarding mine-clearing, they certainly wouldn't.

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- 4/2/2002 9:44:40 AM

Supervisor

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Prior to the 7.1 game engine grenades had lost most of there effect on soft targets. As part of the corrected splash damage routine in 7.1 gerandes will now be more effective against soft targets finally producing some sort of body count as opposed to none at all.
Here is Paul V said about ski troops and mine clearing abilities maybe if can help shed some light.

" I guess I'm at a loss for why ski troops should have mine clearing ability?

That is a class definition issue and the decision was made that ski troops don't clear mines.

Ski troops get extra movment on snow terrain. IF you want you can just make them regular infantry with bonus movement, but then they wil lget the bonuis even when there is no snow. And they will show up in egualr infantry formations.

There is no way to user modifier class characteristics in SP:WaW. We have added that capability in CL.

SP has always had two damage routine, one that inflicts casualties on the target and one that inflicts casualties on units near the target. When the routines where chaged to allow damage to units in nearby hexes by large ordnance, the fact that the target was never checked for this "splash damage" lead to the odd effect of a "bubble of invulnerability" being erected around them. It took quite a while to figure this out and how to change it.

So now when you shoot at a target, it is no longer exempted from the "collateral damage" routine if you miss it. THis can lead to a suppression check in some cases and added suppression.

I played several scenarios last night, on both default and modified settins. Also came to a new set of "favorite" pref mods (inf toughness on 150, HE v soft and HE v Hard at 75%, spotting at 67, rout/rally at 80 and hitting at 85). Your milage will vary.

At the default, infantry that is not "dig -in" is very susceptable to HE - a few rounds of 150mm will send whole platoons scattering in disarray, especially if moving. The increased inf tough keep casualties signifcantly lower but they get suppressed easier and stay suppressed longer.

In one case I sent a platoon of Tigers against a Copany of Soviet infantry. The tigers began spread out with 3 hexes between them and when the Soviets opened up on them were significantly shaken. All but one rallied back to fighting the trim, the other took a few minutes to regain its bearing and coordination with the others. THey manueved to a flank and while they were averaging 20-30 suppression after rallying, they managed to wipe out the Soviet infantry without taking a loss. Lots of searching fire, and a few retreats after 20 or 30 shots from a platoon, but mutual support and overruns put the Soviets to flight. especially once the ATR;s were goen and they were subject to tank fright. Several times simply moving the Tiger adjacent meant the defends broke and ran for it. Two unsuccessful assaults had me change to stand off tacics once they were put to flight and easily detected in the open.

I can see why the MC developers liek the current defaults. MC games move quickly and result in ocassional bloddy noses for the germans. Bill Trotter agrees in his recent magazine column, praising the MCs. In scenarios too, the "higher stakes" of bloodier combat seems right in many cases. Other times I like the mod settings mentioned above. Particularly in regualr Campaign play, where I painstakingly try to balance speed and casualties. The less bloody results also tend to be more forgiving of misclicks and tactical miscues.

We have tried to give you as much control as we can, and be responsive, but it has been a twin edged sword, with changes spinning off bugs and responding to one group alienating another.

We keep plugging along, understanding why most companies work behind closed doors..."

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- 4/2/2002 9:06:13 PM

Charles2222

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gmenfan: Paul and I talked extensively on the issue of ski troops not being able to clear mines, and I think given the entireity of the discussion (what you just quoted was only the initial response from Paul), to say that all mounted units are treated alike proves to be a more accurate statement, however, that is precisely the angle from which I approach the lack of smoke grenades for at least the GE ski troops, and it looks to be not the case if a design decision but simply a mistake, as indeed, I metioned earlier, the Cossacks clearly are in the same class but do have smokers.

Since Cossacks have smokers, and ski troops do not, it's not like ski troops or any other mounted unit cannot be touched, it's only that they cannot be touched in matters of mine-clearing. I would still like to know how I can override the OOBs and establish the ski troops with smoke grenades.

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- 4/2/2002 9:23:36 PM

skukko

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From: Finland
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why do poor russians have smokegrenades in night and in snowstorm ? Would it be cool to cut smokies away entirely from all others but special troops, or did every squad have 3-6 cans with them while in night patrol ? hmmm..

mosh

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- 4/2/2002 10:03:58 PM

Charles2222

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skukko: Are you generalizing that Cossacks were only active at night?

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- 4/3/2002 3:00:33 AM

Supervisor

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Charles_22: Your right this is only one post from Paul in that thread on this topic, I don't know what the final decission was but here the enitre thread link with ski troops highlighted. [URL=http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15479&highlight=ski+troops]7.1 OOB's Ski troops[/URL]

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- 4/3/2002 4:04:00 AM

Charles2222

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gmenfan: In case I'm being misunderstood here, and I'm starting to get that impression, the issue of ski troops mine-clearing has been settled as far as SPWAW is concerned and it will remain as is, but of course that has nothing to do with lack of smoke for ski troops, which is what I'm driving at, which of course was spawned off the general grenade issue at the start of this thread about those being too effective. Thanks.

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- 4/3/2002 6:36:44 AM

Supervisor

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To the best of my knowledge yes it's a dead issue in SPWAW I don't know of anyone who is currently attempting to fix it. The fixes you seek will be in CL though. Sorry:(

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Post #: 12

- 4/3/2002 7:21:07 AM

Charles2222

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gmenfan: Yeah I know, but if somebody can tell me how to alter the OOBs, just where the smoke grenades toggle is, SPWAW can be altered in that respect now, and of course, ultimately, if I disagree with the regular grenade effectiveness I know how to alter that. I'm just not sure there's an obvious designation in the editor to account for smoke grenades.

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Post #: 13

- 4/3/2002 10:40:53 AM

skukko

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]skukko: Are you generalizing that Cossacks were only active at night? [/B][/QUOTE]

No, I am just thinking that overall infantry has too much smoke. Think abou it: You carry smoke-cans in same place as handgrenades. If you go into night patrol and it is raining with visibilty in few meters, does it make sense to drop smoke when you are fired at ? I would take those handgrenades and leave smokies away...

Nothing big, just a thought ;)

msoh

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Post #: 14

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