How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1?

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How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 5:22:59 AM

Berkut

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So far, it seesm like the game against a human is very sluggish. The Union activation system means that they must keep the bulk of their forces in a few regions, and wait for an activation. After which, they can attack the "next space", which the South can then pour reinforcements into. Win or lose, the South can then re-spread back out to defend.

This results in the game seeming to be very plodding - the Union cannot really send troops off and away from the ACs, because the South can easily react to them and destroy them piecemeal, and then re-group. Even if the Union gets a good activation, and strikes hard, he inevitable must then wait for several turns to bring his troops back together, and wait for another activation.

I think I must be doing something wrong - any pointers out there on how to make the game (at least in the West) be a little bit more about moving, and less about gigantic fights?

Post #: 1

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 6:42:20 AM

JAMiAM

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Tag team your armies in whatever theater you want to focus on. Bring three together, if necessary. This allows you to avoid the routine of "take one region, build depot next turn, gain initiative the turn after, repeat...".

Having multiple supporting armies allows you to take/threaten multiple regions, or have one army always in the depot, leapfrogging with another. If you get more than one with initiative and your overall numerical advantage is large enough, you can better use pinning tactics against the front-line regions that contain Confederate troops that are likely to otherwise react into the region that you are focusing your main thrust on.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 2

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 6:45:04 AM

Joel Billings

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There are several ways:

1) Use cav to take open areas.
2) Look for opportunities to overrun weak areas.
3) Launch plenty of amphib attacks on the coast to tie down southern troops and capture areas (and especially ports if possible).
4) Moving 3 ACs to the west at times can pay off big.
5) Look for situations where you can pin down front line areas with decent secondary attacks while your AC still has a large enough force to threaten in an attack. This may reduce the reaction force enough for you to win the main battle, or you may end up winning a secondary attack and gaining a position that alters the frontline in your favor. You need to have a large superiority in numbers to do this, but this is quite possible with the Union, who should outnumber the south by a lot (if you don't, you haven't drafted enough at the start - first or second turn draft is a must, another draft in early 62 is usually a good idea as well).

Realize that things will probably go slow in the winter, but the summer is your time to move. Obviously you need to be using the best possible AC's and TCs. Winter is often a good time to launch smaller amphib operations in unusual locations. It can also be a time where although you can't move far to attack, the defender also can't move far to react.

It's easy to get stalemated. Let's face it, in Virginia the North hardly went anywhere for 3 years. The west and the coasts can be cracked open with the right combination of forces, leaders and tactics (and some luck, which you should get eventually).

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 3

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 6:45:46 AM

Joel Billings

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Jamiam beat me to it.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 7:24:58 AM

Berkut

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I think I do these things, but against a human with some skill, I don't see them working.

He doesn't need to put a lot of troops in the frontline to be pinned down - he knows where the attack is coming, and can simply garrison and wait for it, then react in. He may win, he may lose, but either way, he just loses a space, backs up, and you do it all over again. There is no way, that I can see, of forcing the Confederacy to react to manuever, since the attacker will generaly only get to move every few turns, while the defender gets to move every turn, and then an "extra" move in reaction as well.

It will be interesting to see how the results play out once a lot of people start playing PBEM games, as opposed to beating up on the AI.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 5

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 7:27:29 AM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Tag team your armies in whatever theater you want to focus on. Bring three together, if necessary. This allows you to avoid the routine of "take one region, build depot next turn, gain initiative the turn after, repeat...".

Having multiple supporting armies allows you to take/threaten multiple regions, or have one army always in the depot, leapfrogging with another. If you get more than one with initiative and your overall numerical advantage is large enough, you can better use pinning tactics against the front-line regions that contain Confederate troops that are likely to otherwise react into the region that you are focusing your main thrust on.

SO the key to the Union strategy is a reverse anaconda - focus everything along one axis, ignore the rest.

I am not sure that is really going to work - the South can focus just the same, with the advantage of unlimited movement.

I am beginnig to think that the basic activation mechanic is incredibly biased towards the strategic defenders, since it really does not effect them - they can move all their troops around at will, since they have freedom to move within their lines to wherever the attacker threatens.

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 6

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 7:41:40 AM

Joel Billings

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No, you do need to spread out the Confederacy through the blockade and amphibious invasions. Also, threaten to attack as many areas as possible.

The defender needs initiative as well for two reasons. First, to be able to react far, and second, so that his AC can assist units that didn't start in the area attacked. If you attack an area and the defending AC does not have initiative, he can't help units reacting into the battle (even those he started the turn with).

We will have to see as people learn the tactics and start playing PBEM. My experience is the Union has plenty of things they can do to keep the Confederate off balance, but a good Confederate player can certainly make it very difficult for the Union as well. I think Jon and I both feel that the Union has a slight edge in the game, but we could be wrong.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 7

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 1:22:45 PM

Bearcat2

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I have only been playing against the computer to get a feel for the game, but after playing 12 games as the union on normal[10 as the confederate] IMHO the union has an advantage, they have to be patient, use their fleets when possible to isolate attacked rebel armies from reinforcement, use diversionary attacks to pin down the rebels for same reason, raid with cav in hopes of destroying rail net behind the target rebel army to slow down the reinforcement to your target area.
Overrun when possible, take every coastal area[usually take both forts below NO on the second turn] The only thing slowing me down is the illness, deaths, resigning of army cmdr's that I am going to use in an attack; or my Theater cmdr disappearing, dying, resigning, sulking and I miss that message and wonder why it's July and none of the armies that I have I have assembled are activated. I have tried different strategies, and one of the intrigueing ones is to have Sheridan [ not using him as an army cmdr]out in Missouri/Arkansas with a Cav/Art force taking Arkansas and NW Texas without having to be activated.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 8

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 2:09:07 PM

Berkut

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Meh, I don't really care what is possible against the AI - the AI plays in the manner the game designer tells it to play, a human plays in the manner the game designer *doesn't* want them to play!

Joel, my point was about the strategic ability of the defender to react to any build up - the activation system lets them react to an attack at will, while the attacker has to wait for an activation before he can attack. This seems (and this is based on just a few plays of course) to result in a game that has very little maneuver, even in the west. All the maneuvering by the attacker *must* come from one area, so it is limited in its scope. You can bring in an extra AC of course, which works nicely on those rare occasions when they both activate, but that cuts down your ability to threaten more places, a key concept for allowing the Union to exploit their numerical advantage.

(in reply to Bearcat2)

Post #: 9

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 3:26:13 PM

davekinva

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I'll vouch for the "World War One" effect in the AI games I've played so far. A lot of that going on.

Here's one potentially simple solution-- give the Union another Army Commander (5 vs. the CSA's 4). This allows the Union to spread out the attack a bit more and keep up the tempo-- not to mention keep an AC available for the amphibious game or the Trans-Mississippi West.

Not to mention, it's historically accurate-- the Union fielded more "army" structures than the CSA did, especially by 1864.

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 10

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 4:12:31 PM

Berkut

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*If* there is a problem, and I am not yet convinced there is (although I suspect it), I would rather see a solution like this:

Increase the odds of individual leaders activating. Not by a lot, but make it so that they will activate, eventually. This will force there to be action away from the large army concentrations.

I would actually like to see something where an individual leader not with a AC would have a slowly increasing chance of activation over time, reseting back to the base, rare level once he actually activated. Kind of a "building up" of his activation?

(in reply to davekinva)

Post #: 11

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 7:41:48 PM

Capt Cliff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: davekinva

I'll vouch for the "World War One" effect in the AI games I've played so far. A lot of that going on.

Here's one potentially simple solution-- give the Union another Army Commander (5 vs. the CSA's 4). This allows the Union to spread out the attack a bit more and keep up the tempo-- not to mention keep an AC available for the amphibious game or the Trans-Mississippi West.

Not to mention, it's historically accurate-- the Union fielded more "army" structures than the CSA did, especially by 1864.

Adding an extra AC for the union in 63 & one more in 64 would really represent the Uion getting it's act together to do some serious butt kicking. The south could have NEVER won that war.

_____________________________

Capt. Cliff

(in reply to davekinva)

Post #: 12

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/2/2008 8:18:09 PM

tran505

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I agree that getting the ball rolling in 1862 can be hard. I think this is consistant with History -- '62 was Hell. Once you get rolling, I think things tend to loosen up, particularly in the West.

In addition to doing invasions and spreading out the defense (which I agree with) I think just making sure you are bulked up enough to do the job will help. The suggestion to shut down all production on turn 1, build ONLY supplies, and call a Union Draft, may give you the guys you need in '62 to do some damage. Expect about 50 new militia on turn 1 alone if you do this. Then train train and train until the campaign season in '62!

Regards,

P

(in reply to Capt Cliff)

Post #: 13

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/3/2008 3:00:29 PM

Feralkoala

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I think Berkut's problem has more to do with the scale of the game; at the scale depicted, there were very few times you saw a 'war of movement'. Most of the operational maneuver action in this game is abstracted into the combat sequence.

(in reply to tran505)

Post #: 14

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/3/2008 8:32:16 PM

WarHunter

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The Principles of War

Objective: Have a primary Objective. Have a Secondary objective. Be flexible and adapt to the inititive revealed to you. Have an AC in Washington for the times you can do an Amphib. The objective is to take ground and hold it. Don't go for ground you don't intend to keep. Remember, As you push to your objective, the Rebel player is making the denial of that objective his goal also.

Simplicity: Keep your plans simple. They have to be simple because inititive is never to be counted on.

Unity of Command: Look for leaders that work well with each other. Leaders with a rating of 4 in their speciality are golden. having them spread out is foolish. Bring them together for a fast moving hard hitting force. Those with 1 ratings, keep them out. Place them in the static positions. Even if they get inititive, they wont move as far. You make or break your army based on the leader choices.

Offensive: When you attack, dont put your blinders on and just attack in 1 region, for the whole month. If you do, don't be surprised when you lose.

Main Attack, Flank attack, Overruns, Amphibs, Diversionary attacks. Use them all. If the main attack falters, you could still win that flank, or maybe pinned some reaction forces. That amphib might get you 2 political points. If you force a battle, make the Rebel player think, instead of just moving to one region for a huge monthly butcher bill.

Maneuver: Use your Rails to move forces east to west and back. Don't be afraid to concentrate those transports on the river to make an Amphib. Build Ironclads on the Mississippi to clear it of Heavy guns. Once the river is clear, make it your river. (Watch out for Vicksburg). Use your ability to create Mounted infantry to overrun forward undefended regions. Just like when you took Kentucky. Amphib one month, next month make a mounted infantry and overrun that region the rebel player cant hold. Reinforce and hold on to it. Bring 3 AC's together for a multi region offensive. Crack the shell, watch the yolk spill out.

Mass: Getting the mass of troops to the location of your attack, while not being obvious, is not easy. Build decoy Depots, Scout objectives, the one you want and the ones you dont care about. Recon forts with ships and engage in artillery duels, Raid the Rebel player in hopes of destroying his rail net. When inititive is yours, strike everywhere, but have your primary/secondary objective as the goal of your focused mass.

Economy of Force: Make sure leaders have troops they can use. Look over the speciality ratings for the studs and the duds. The Infantry leader with a 1 artillery rating, is not a good choice to attach artillery to. Find the 3 rated leader. Dont hit a fort with 1 ship, if there are 2 or more guns, you are gonna get sunk. Send in multipule ships to spread out the damage. Build ironclads. Try not to use milita in battles. Not always possible.

Surprise: Set up a forward line of regions lightly held, Have your AC's 1 region back. This is not always possible, But when it is, you will come to the fight, Unknown and deadly. Just like the Rebel player. Setup an AC in plain sight, fill it with troops and build 4 depots. Make it a target for the rebel cav. Then hit him where he ain't.

Security: DRAFT, you need the extra milita to guard against the partisans. Expect to Draft 2 times for the numbers you need. Build Ships early, they protect your valuable transports. Build ports as needed when advancing. Build Cavalry, they screen your armies. At some point, every AC, needs a good cavalry force to protect it and scout for it. Dont be caught without.

I can't say you won't find times of static lines. Winter being the most likey. But when its not winter, the Union is the one dictating the pace of the game. That last month of winter should have you sitting on your best possible chance of inititve to begin the Summer with.
If not, you fail.

You fail when all you do is feed the AC with the highest chance of Inititve and ignore all others. You fail if you dont make use of the navy to occupie coastal regions. You fail if your army is a a bunch of names and you can't recite from memory which are the Studs of your leadership. Those leaders in the chain of command doing the real heavy lifting during combat.

You win if you can stay focused on what you want, can adapt to your opponents moves, are flexible with the inititive given, and can give credit where credit is due, when your opponent kicks ass and takes names.

_____________________________

�We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.�
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Berkut)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/3/2008 8:39:43 PM

Treefrog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The Principles of War

Objective: You win if you can stay focused on what you want, can adapt to your opponents moves, are flexible with the inititive given, and can give credit where credit is due, when your opponent kicks ass and takes names.

Kudos: all good stuff.

_____________________________

"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

(in reply to WarHunter)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/3/2008 10:32:17 PM

beevor_fan

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WarHunter is on a roll!

(in reply to Treefrog)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/3/2008 10:43:33 PM

Erik Rutins

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I think it's easy to bog down when you haven't mastered the game yet (I certainly haven't). When you get your act together, the game certainly does not turn into WWI. You can still have your Vicksburgs and Petersburgs though as well as your March to the Sea, some long sieges and entrenched lineswere part of the war and if they didn't happen at all, that would be a cause for concern.

Have a look at the latest AAR between James and Jon for an example of a Union player who is definitely not bogged down, same goes for Jon and Joel's AAR.

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to beevor_fan)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/3/2008 10:55:52 PM

Queeg

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I wonder from looking at the map whether there is enough room in Virginia for the sorts of maneuver in that occurred historically in that theater.

(in reply to Berkut)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/4/2008 12:38:08 AM

dthornburg

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I basically had to take a break from the game for a couple weeks. I played several games as the Union on Normal (albeit against the AI) and never was successful in winning. I tried several tactics such as invading New Orleans and blockading, for example. I concentrated my best commanders (Grant, Sherman, etc) in Kentucky and the west. For some time it looked like I would be successful but then after taking Nashville in '63 things just bogged down. And most surprisingly, I ran into one of the same problems I have always run into; the southern juggernaut. My troops in the south never actually reached their destination because they got blocked by a much larger force that the CSA moved in to block me. I took as many troops out of the east that I could spare but I have been bitten by that trick before too because Ihave had Washington invaded in previous games. By '63 the CSA outnumbers me in troops! Not sure what history book that came out of. On every front the CSA eventually outnumbers the USA. I ran a draft early on which helped initially but most of those troops died because of poor USA leadership at the time. If I try to press the draft and push the CSA back I take large wack on the political point total. My concern is that there seems to be a pretty rigid 'script' or set of tactics that must be followed for the USA to win.

(in reply to Queeg)

Post #: 20

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/4/2008 1:03:27 AM

Joel Billings

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If the Union is ever outnumbered by the south, you're in big trouble. If there's a script, it would be something like this:

1) Draft on turn 1 or 2.
2) Secure the border states.
3) Secure the islands, maximize your blockade.
4) Take advantage of opportunities to launch "relatively safe" amphibious invasions on the coast.
5) Deal with Kentucky somehow (there are varied opinions on this).
6) Don't waste a lot of troops attacking in 1861 with militia against strong defending forces.
7) Make sure you've got the best leaders you can in key positions.
8) Condider a draft in early 1862.

After that, I don't see a script. If you take care of these things, you can set yourself up in a decent position to attack in 1862 with a numerical superiority. Take a look at some of the AARs to see how the Union player can get things rolling. You might want to switch to the CSA side for a bit to see what it's like from the other side. You'll also get to see what the Union AI likes to do. Good luck.

(in reply to dthornburg)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/4/2008 3:19:02 PM

madgamer2

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From the nature of your posts here on this forum it begs the question "Do you really enjoy this game? Is there any strategic level game (AACW,FoF,etc) that you like? Like people games have to be accepted as they are. If you do not like them then why bother us with you dislikes. It seems to me that your not interested in playing but in putting forth your "this is not right and it should be done differently" kind of attitude on the forum.

Regards,
Madgamer

(in reply to Berkut)

Post #: 22

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/4/2008 4:48:10 PM

rclawson007

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You probably all know this... but the whinnings posted here were in fact the very nature of the USCW. If you want to play WW2, then play WW2. Don't expect a good STRATEGIC LEVEL civil war game to play like a tactical Russian Front.

(in reply to madgamer2)

Post #: 23

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/4/2008 5:39:16 PM

madgamer2

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do you except PM's? if not PM me it might be worth it

Madgamer

(in reply to dthornburg)

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RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/4/2008 9:21:40 PM

Pford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

I wonder from looking at the map whether there is enough room in Virginia for the sorts of maneuver in that occurred historically in that theater.

People are forgetting that the Civil War DID turn into WW1 after 1864. At least the Eastern theatre.

(in reply to Queeg)

Post #: 25

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/5/2008 4:51:18 AM

Queeg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pford

quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

I wonder from looking at the map whether there is enough room in Virginia for the sorts of maneuver in that occurred historically in that theater.

People are forgetting that the Civil War DID turn into WW1 after 1864. At least the Eastern theatre.

I haven't forgotten that at all. But the war in the East, for the first three years, was very much a war of maneuver.

(in reply to Pford)

Post #: 26

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/5/2008 5:31:22 AM

tran505

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Couple of things.....

Although the appearance of a continuous line of fortifications from on end of the map to the other does suggest WW I, the game does not play that way IFF you understand the system. The early turns are critical to set yourself up for success (or failure) in '62. Taking Missouri and W. Virginia is automatic on turn 1, and taking Kentucky is not that much harder within the next turn or two. DRAFT on turn 1; delaying all builds for a turn will get you 50+ militia to train on turn one alone.

I have no doubt that there is all sort of "maneuvering" going on; except that at this scale it occurs within a single zone within a single month. If you want lower detail -- try AGEODS's product. This system works within its intended scope.

I liked the comment someone made that you need to "crack the egg and spill the yolk"". It really works that way. You will need to fight like hell in Tennessee, but things will get better once you punch through.

Yes if do not "do the right things" you may get bogged down. It has happened to me. But if you take the many easy "gimmies" that are available, you will have enough PP for a turn 1 draft and an early '62 draft, and you will be able to punch through with improved leaders AND enough soldiers to do the job.

Regards,

P

(in reply to Queeg)

Post #: 27

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/5/2008 6:32:09 AM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

From the nature of your posts here on this forum it begs the question "Do you really enjoy this game? Is there any strategic level game (AACW,FoF,etc) that you like? Like people games have to be accepted as they are. If you do not like them then why bother us with you dislikes. It seems to me that your not interested in playing but in putting forth your "this is not right and it should be done differently" kind of attitude on the forum.

Regards,
Madgamer

Well, I will agree that I am not your typical "OMG DIS GAME IS TEH BESTED EVER IT IS PERFECT OMG!" fanboy, and that is true in every game that I like. If I did not like the game, you would never even hear from me, since I would not waste my time commenting on it, asking questions, and challenging the fanbois.

But if you want to bring up my motivations in an effort to make ad hom attacks, rather than address my points, I don't really have any time for you either.

And no, games do NOT have to be accepted as they are - nothing in life has to be "accepted as they are". Things improve and get better via feedback, constructive criticism, and discussion. I don't just bitch and complain, I ask questions, raise issues that I think are relevant, and invite discussion. If this bothers you, and I understand there are lots of people out there bothered by this kind of "challenge" to their paradigm, then I invite you to simply ignore my posts.

(in reply to madgamer2)

Post #: 28

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/5/2008 6:33:19 AM

Berkut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rclawson007

You probably all know this... but the whinnings posted here were in fact the very nature of the USCW. If you want to play WW2, then play WW2. Don't expect a good STRATEGIC LEVEL civil war game to play like a tactical Russian Front.

I am not sure who you are talking to here - the only people I have notice "whinning" are the ones complaining about what other people post, like they are the self appointed forum police.

(in reply to rclawson007)

Post #: 29

RE: How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1? - 7/5/2008 6:08:38 PM

Pford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feralkoala

I think Berkut's problem has more to do with the scale of the game; at the scale depicted, there were very few times you saw a 'war of movement'.

I agree and would also add 'hindsight'. In 1861, the Civil War commanders were operating off the Napoleonic template; sweeping maneuvers, concentration and decisive battles. In period photographs, ever notice how many generals posed with right hand slipped under the breast lapel? Technology, like rifling, had transferred the advantage to the defender. The player knows this but the actual leaders had to grope towards this epiphany.

So, given the player's pre-knowledge, campaigns in WBTS tend, in my experience, to unwind in a conservative, a-historical fashion. Taking the Confed side you see that the Union AI will NOT hazard a Bullrun but will consolidate at leisure before invading Virginia in 1862. And is wise to do so, despite the political climate that rendered inertia inconceivable- Lincoln basically nagged McClellan into action. But I believe the combat mechanics and results are pretty unimpeachable, abstracting out political realities.

< Message edited by Pford -- 7/5/2008 6:34:13 PM >

(in reply to Feralkoala)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> How do you keep the game from bogging down into WW1?

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