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PT Boats - 7/5/2008 1:15:55 AM   
Kingfisher

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline 		Had a 10-PT boat TF stationed at Lunga. Date was around Mid-Oct '42. A Japanese TF of 5 destroyers enters the hex at night and a surface engagment commences. The result is 4 PT boats blown out of the water, none of the Japanese boats suffer damage. Fast forward 2 turns and another Japanese TF, this time around 6 ships, two of which are CLs, enters the hex. Same replay as before, 4 boats lost, no loss to the Japanese.

Is this typical? Will different tactics / deployments make PT boats more effective? I'm not expecting a 1:1 loss ratio everytime, but I would think they would have their advantages in the confined waters of the slot, especially at night against an opponent lacking radar.
Post #: 1
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 1:46:00 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		They suck. You might as well send out plates of sushi in hope that the Japanese will eat themselves to death.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Kingfisher)
Post #: 2
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 2:51:24 PM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline 		Here's the matchup you want: PT Boat v. Barges

Anything else is useless.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 3
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 4:17:44 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Not true!  Yes, PTs are great vs barges, but they can ruin the IJN's night and put a fish into a high value target.  You must realize that the USN operated PTs in groups of 3.  The detection level is probably lower and a few of these groups operating together have worked very well for me at times.  Even if the PTs just break up a bombardment or save the unloading transports because the IJN breaks off they've done the job, hits or not. 

A sunk PT gives the Japanese player 1 VP, so what's the worry?

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 4
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 5:14:11 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		Agreed, and Kingfisher can help himself by breaking his PTs into separate squadrons, which will make the computer make multiple die rolls. The more PT squads you have, the better the chance they won't all be surprised.

Also a good PT squadron commander helps -- you can manipulate this by the number of boats per PT squad -- and make sure to mine the harbor; an injured IJN ship can be a sitting duck for a PT's fish.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 5
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 7:31:16 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Injured IJN vessels that can't get out of LBA range will get pounded in the morning if Allied air is present and set for naval attack.  Supplies and engineers are the key to fixing any bombardment damage done the night before by the IJN.  Mines and PTs are a good and cheap defense.

Actually bombardments are an irritant, but nothing to really worry about as it presents opportunities to engage and sink the enemy.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 6
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 8:50:15 PM   
Kingfisher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff
Even if the PTs just break up a bombardment or save the unloading transports because the IJN breaks off they've done the job, hits or not.


They may had broken up a night bombardment, but there is no way to be sure. In neither case did the Japanese bombard Lunga, so at first glance they appear to have saved Henderson field from a good schlacking. However, at the time the Japanese had a garrison at Koli Point, and the makeup of both Japanese TFs' points more towards fast transport rather than bombardment.

Would a convoy bound for Koli trigger a reaction from a Lunga based TF?

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 7
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 9:18:29 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		If a TF, surface combat, is set for react to enemy then it's entirely possible that they will fight.  It's also possible that the enemy wasn't detected so nothing will happen.

Recon is hugely important in this game and it should be done in a manner not to tip your hand, if possible.  If I see you heading towards me for a day or 2 then you're in trouble upon arrival, if I have the assets in place.  At worst for me I can run away from you with vulnerable transports.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Kingfisher)
Post #: 8
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 10:17:53 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Here's the matchup you want: PT Boat v. Barges

Anything else is useless.


I've seen barges shoot up PT boats.

Besides, at one VP apiece, losing these things can get pretty expensive after awhile. Barges, as you know, are freebies.

I have tried to refine my use of PTs, without success. I still say that the remote chance they have of inflicting any damage is not enough to justify risking the losses they inevitably incur while putt-putt-putting around in areas thick with IJN destroyers.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 9
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 11:01:06 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Wrong!  Ask JoeD, or better yet read our AAR (Long Road) and you'll see that any points I lost with PTs were more than made up for by their heroic actions of inflicting damage or sinking the enemy and saving my more valuable shipping.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 10
RE: PT Boats - 7/5/2008 11:14:15 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Wrong!  Ask JoeD, or better yet read our AAR (Long Road) and you'll see that any points I lost with PTs were more than made up for by their heroic actions of inflicting damage or sinking the enemy and saving my more valuable shipping.

tocaff, please, it ain't a matter of "Wrong" complete with exclamation point, we're just expressing our personal experiences here.

Maybe your luck has been better than mine. Fine, congratulations, I hope you're living a happy, satisfying life.

I continue to use PTs with discretion for reasons already stated.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 11
RE: PT Boats - 7/6/2008 1:17:09 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		pasternakski

You misinterpret my saying wrong and thanks for your well wishes. 

In my opinion, based on years of play, I think that the use of PTs can cause things to turn sour for the IJN.  If I were to lose 4 or 5 PTs and put a fish into a BB and the following AM my planes find and hit the same BB I would consider that great.  If it were to happen to a CA or CL that's good too.  Even sinking a DD would be fine.  Remember that in the game it's possible to thwart a TF from bombarding your base or even hitting shipping there.  Have you ever seen the movie "They Were Expendable"?  Well PTs are.

Again it's only my opinion from years of play.


_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 12
RE: PT Boats - 7/6/2008 2:24:21 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

pasternakski

You misinterpret my saying wrong and thanks for your well wishes. 

In my opinion, based on years of play, I think that the use of PTs can cause things to turn sour for the IJN.  If I were to lose 4 or 5 PTs and put a fish into a BB and the following AM my planes find and hit the same BB I would consider that great.  If it were to happen to a CA or CL that's good too.  Even sinking a DD would be fine.  Remember that in the game it's possible to thwart a TF from bombarding your base or even hitting shipping there.  Have you ever seen the movie "They Were Expendable"?  Well PTs are.

Again it's only my opinion from years of play.


I've been around for awhile myself, mon ami (six years on these forums, for example). My problem is that you can lose PT boats in bunches without accomplishing anything. Any kind of a hit seems to be a miracle worthy of a well-known French cavern.

As far as turning back bombardment TFs, when playing the Japanese and suspecting my decadent, imperialist yankee dog opponent of laying a trap for me, I send along a surface combat TF - if I expect PTs, it is a CL leading several DDs. Woe be it to the aspiring Jack Kennedy who steps off the curb in front of this Greyhound bus.

Bombardment TFs are notoriously bad in surface engagements. The Japanese seemed unable to learn the lesson from this in real life. I try not to repeat that error.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 13
RE: PT Boats - 7/6/2008 4:37:27 AM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

Wrong!  Ask JoeD, or better yet read our AAR (Long Road) and you'll see that any points I lost with PTs were more than made up for by their heroic actions of inflicting damage or sinking the enemy and saving my more valuable shipping.



Do have some setting different then mine? I've used hundreds of PT boats and they are all nothing but lunch meat. I've yet to see them score any hits against IJN surface forces not called barges. I think they're useless but I still keep throwing their little plywood hulls into the fray hoping to score a magical torpedo hit on a cruiser or something.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 14
RE: PT Boats - 7/6/2008 4:32:55 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		I can only go by what I've managed to accomplish with them.

I set PTs to squadrons (TFs) of 3 or 4 boats, set them to patrol, react and leave them docked.  If the IJN comes knocking they'll weigh anchor and do their best. 

Of course my opponents might or might not have a surface combat TF with the bombardment TF as only they can answer that one.


< Message edited by tocaff -- 7/6/2008 4:33:31 PM >

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 15
RE: PT Boats - 7/6/2008 5:15:12 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I can only go by what I've managed to accomplish with them.

I set PTs to squadrons (TFs) of 3 or 4 boats, set them to patrol, react and leave them docked.  If the IJN comes knocking they'll weigh anchor and do their best. 

If yer gonna use 'em, this is the way to do it.

Good luck. I use PTs only sparingly, but that's just me.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 16
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 1:13:31 AM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I can only go by what I've managed to accomplish with them.

I set PTs to squadrons (TFs) of 3 or 4 boats, set them to patrol, react and leave them docked.  If the IJN comes knocking they'll weigh anchor and do their best. 

Of course my opponents might or might not have a surface combat TF with the bombardment TF as only they can answer that one.



Sounds like the way I use mine - if you don't they also chew up a ton of fuel - but I just do not score hits with them.

Then again, does anyone know the service record of the PT boats and any number of confirmed warship kills by the little boats?

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 17
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 1:36:18 AM   
Kingfisher

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline 		I found this web site:
http://www.ptboats.org/20-12-05-trivia-001.html

Doesn't provide a kill list, but I did find this tidbit interesting:
quote:

Out of 531 PTs placed in US Navy service, 69 were lost: 5 - destroyed by enemy surface ship gunfire;


So what took 4 years to occur I exceeded by almost 40% in two days. Yeah, somethings not right here.

(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 18
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 2:51:18 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Well, I think PT boats were applied pretty sparingly to combat situations in the historical reality (I love redundancies like that). Maybe they knew something we are trying really hard not to know...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Kingfisher)
Post #: 19
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 3:59:46 AM   
DEB


Posts: 687
Joined: 1/29/2005
From: Bristol , England
Status: offline 		I guess they don't have the same disregard for lives as us players!

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 20
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 4:27:13 AM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kingfisher

I found this web site:
http://www.ptboats.org/20-12-05-trivia-001.html

Doesn't provide a kill list, but I did find this tidbit interesting:
quote:

Out of 531 PTs placed in US Navy service, 69 were lost: 5 - destroyed by enemy surface ship gunfire;


So what took 4 years to occur I exceeded by almost 40% in two days. Yeah, somethings not right here.



How sad is this: 2 - kamikaze attacks.

First, hats off to a pilot that could hit a PT boat. Second, WTF was that pilot doing attacking a PT boat?

(in reply to Kingfisher)
Post #: 21
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 5:42:05 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DEB

I guess they don't have the same disregard for lives as us players!

That's a great post.

I have lobbied hard and long (sorry for the sexual overtones) that these games ought to restrict players to some semblance of what was possible for historical commanders.

But, no. All I see is, "We want to mod it," and "Just because it happened historically shouldn't mean we are restricted to doing that," and "I want to explore how it could have been, not how it was," and "If I wanted history, I would go and read a book."

And so on.

I started playing wargames based on the excitement level generated by Avalon Hill's old saying, "Do you ever wonder if you could have done better?"

I want what they got historically. I want to apply my skills and abilities to it and see what I can accomplish by comparison to what actually was done with it.

I could care less about "Suppose they built 183 Yamatos."

I guess that makes me a dinosaur. At least, I'm not a dinosaur who says, "Skrew your asteroid, I'm gonna keep on breathing, eating, and reproducing no matter what."

I'm sure you all hope I don't reproduce. Sorry, I already did. Twice. But don't worry. They wound up hating me, too.


_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to DEB)
Post #: 22
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 9:19:01 AM   
XG76


Posts: 27
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		IMHO these tiny combat vessels are almost useless for some time until they gain at least a decent degree of experience. To achieve that you need to employ them continuously, no matter what. Of course you´ll lose dozens of them that way, but the remainder can become a pestilent weapon eventually.

just my two cents

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 23
RE: PT Boats - 7/7/2008 1:21:51 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		There are no useless platforms in UV.  Everything has it's purpose and if you don't think so read about 2 unappreciated ones:

The AV with supplies at a dot base instantly allows flying boats to recon from there.  Don't forget to scoot before your opponent comes by to shut you down.

The P-39 is a great barge killer and not bad against transports too.  You just need to base them close enough to do the job.


_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to XG76)
Post #: 24
RE: PT Boats - 7/8/2008 1:09:28 PM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

The P-39 is a great barge killer and not bad against transports too.  You just need to base them close enough to do the job.



The P39 is a wonderweapon for crushing enemy transport. A few squadrons at PM and IJN attempts to keep Gili Gili supplied die a horrible death. The same thing happens once you get your toe-hold on Guadcanal.


(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 25
RE: PT Boats - 7/8/2008 1:52:32 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		 I don't mind the PTs getting raked with fire from big guns of surface vessels, I call it the price of doing business with them but the PTs should engage ungarded transports and trade fire with them much more often than they do.  I'm speaking about known large TFs of AGs coming down the slot on their way to Tassafronga. Ditto with Submarines on the AGs.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 7/8/2008 1:55:19 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 26
RE: PT Boats - 7/16/2008 4:35:31 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
Status: offline 		I´ve never feared the Allied PT boat so much. Occasionally they might get lucky and torpedo a ship but this is rare.

They are worth 1 pt and limited in number, surface ships chew them up. Not a serious threat.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 27
RE: PT Boats - 7/16/2008 10:10:06 AM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline 		Just from cursory research I didn't find any mention of a PT boat sinking an enemy warship. The main effect of the PT boats was to breakup formations when they struck and not to damage things.



(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 28
RE: PT Boats - 7/16/2008 4:46:37 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I´ve never feared the Allied PT boat so much. Occasionally they might get lucky and torpedo a ship but this is rare.

They are worth 1 pt and limited in number, surface ships chew them up. Not a serious threat.


If PTs are combined w/a well-mined harbor, it's a combat multiplier; the PTs will get much better odds hitting IJN vessels already damaged by mines.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 29
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