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Subs - 7/10/2008 3:38:48 AM

SteveF2006

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Joined: 11/5/2006
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I know this subject has been brought up before I think but is something going to be done to make attacking subs more reallistic? Right now I'm playing, I have sent 4 Vikings, 4 Osprey and 6 Seahawks against ONE Kilo. I have fired (righton top of the sub) more than 20 torpedos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One hit for 13% damage. What is up? Every sub is like super sub. Will this be fixed at some point?

And yes I know, get right on top of the sub before you fire to increase you chance to hit. Increase to what .000333%? OK I know I'm a little frustrated but it's certainly taking away from the fun of the game. I surely don't expect every torpedo to hit bu tat least a 10% chance when dropped right on top of the sub!

Post #: 1

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 7:51:31 AM

hermanhum

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I rarely use more than 6 torpedoes to kill a sub. Usually, I get him with <4.

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Post #: 2

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 8:34:45 AM

FransKoenz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Usually, I get him with <4.

What a waste of ammo

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Post #: 3

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 11:49:55 AM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
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I'm also not having this problem. Anyone else?

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Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to FransKoenz)

Post #: 4

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 12:01:12 PM

Divefreak

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Joined: 7/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

I'm also not having this problem. Anyone else?

Yes, sometimes....

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My dbs: HC-65to80-DB and HC-80to95-DB, get it via www.harpgamer.com

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Post #: 5

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 2:10:52 PM

CV32

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I don't think the GE calculation for hit probability (pH) is skewed, unless you have some more info from your beta testing, Rene.

Kill probability (pK) may be a different matter, however. H4.1 values for torpedo damage points (DP) have been revised upward in the latest annexes I've seen. I'm going to take a look at those numbers and see if they should be incorporated into the HCDB database.

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HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

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Post #: 6

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 3:04:48 PM

Divefreak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

I don't think the GE calculation for hit probability (pH) is skewed, unless you have some more info from your beta testing, Rene.

I think it was caused by the acuisition values... The torps simply didn�t see their target

Because i made similar Obersevations with my dbs after the change and befor the fix....

PH is Ok.

Pk should be higher. i�m using the changed dp values too.

Regards Ren�

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My dbs: HC-65to80-DB and HC-80to95-DB, get it via www.harpgamer.com

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Post #: 7

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 3:19:13 PM

CV32

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Divefreak
I think it was caused by the acuisition values... The torps simply didn�t see their target

No, thats an old problem, been fixed for some time now.

PK is the only outstanding issue that I can see, and is an easily remedied DB issue. Unless someone else can show us a bug.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

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Post #: 8

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 3:47:12 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveF2006

Right now I'm playing, I have sent 4 Vikings, 4 Osprey and 6 Seahawks against ONE Kilo. I have fired (righton top of the sub) more than 20 torpedos!

Perhaps a little more detail is in order. Which scenario is being played?

How are the aircraft/helos being assigned?
Are they all coming in one big group?
Is the one group of 6 SeaHawks from a single ship? or are they 6 ships each sending 1 helo and that group of 6 being launched at the same time?
Exactly which weapon is being fired? Mk 46? Mk 50 Barracuda? Mk 54 ALHT?

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Post #: 9

RE: Harpoon - 7/10/2008 4:01:50 PM

CV32

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Yes, as reminded by Herman, its always helpful to have as much information as possible, so we can eliminate all the variables.

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Brad Leyte
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Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 10

RE: Harpoon - 7/12/2008 8:27:50 PM

CV32

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The latest HCDB-080712 update includes a major overhaul for torpedoes to incorporate data from the latest Harpoon 4 Trilogy annexes. In most instances, you will see an upward change in damage point (DP) values (in some cases 2-3 times as much as before) as well as slight downward changes in torpedo ranges. Lightweight torpedoes, for example, are significantly more lethal as compared to before.

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Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to CV32)

Post #: 11

RE: Harpoon - 8/6/2008 7:16:34 PM

Owl

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The thing that really strikes me is that a sub can take considerable damage, and still be putting about at "deep" depth. I've never seen one surface due to being damaged - I suspect that's beyond the scope of the program though.
I have dropped Mk 46 and mk 50's virtually right on top of subs and had them take off in odd directions. This seems to occur more often when multiple fish are dropped on a single target in shor order. I often try to box a sub in with torpedo drops at short range less than a mile (if I can do it) away on opposite sides - so if it runs one way it will run toward a fish. Even so I too have had over a dozen torpedoes fired at a single sub (most recently a victor III). The good thing is once I know where it's at I can generally avoid it, the bad thing is when it's a victory condition and I have to sink the dang thing!

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Post #: 12

RE: Harpoon - 8/6/2008 7:21:59 PM

TonyE

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True Owl, at least we made a little progress in the 2008.044 by making ships and subs more noisy to passive sonar as their damage increases; a step in the right direction.

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Post #: 13

RE: Harpoon - 8/6/2008 9:57:23 PM

CV32

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owl
The thing that really strikes me is that a sub can take considerable damage, and still be putting about at "deep" depth.� I've never seen one surface due to being damaged - I suspect that's beyond the scope of the program though.

As Tony has said, we've made some improvements to this issue, but you're right, the model can only take us so far.

quote:

I have dropped Mk 46 and mk 50's virtually right on top of subs and had them take off in odd directions.� This seems to occur more often when multiple fish are dropped on a single target in shor order.

Its not intentional in HCE, but I understand that in real life homing torpedoes operating in close proximity can cause mutual interference.

quote:

I often try to box a sub in with torpedo drops at short range less than a mile (if I can do it) away on opposite sides - so if it runs one way it will run toward a fish.� Even so I too have had over a dozen torpedoes fired at a single sub (most recently a victor III).� The good thing is once I know where it's at I can generally avoid it, the bad thing is when it's a victory condition and I have to sink the dang thing!

We're satisfied that these instances are a combination of one or more of the following:
(1) dropping a torpedo outside its acquisition range (or the target subsequently escaping outside acquisition range, especially with high speed submarine targets)
(2) simple bad luck with the die rolls (i.e. the intercept calculation is not in your favor)

For example, Warhorse brought up a similar experience in a post at HG. I created a simple test scenario and managed to kill the same target with the same torpedo with a single shot. The model appears to be calculating all the variables as intended.

_____________________________

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Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

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Post #: 14

RE: Harpoon - 8/7/2008 4:51:57 PM

Owl

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Hi Brad,
What IS the aquisition range of torpedoes? I can say in the sistuations I'm most concerned with (and it is in the vein of trying to help improve the game, not "bitching") I know where the sub is - it's a little red v and a dot - and I am dropping the torpedo within a mile. I think that covers the aquisition range part. I'm sure subs have countermeasures and I am unsure how good they are, but they should run out at some point so later torpedoes should have greater odds of hitting.
I do know that dice rolls can sometimes give some pretty odd odds (no pun intended!) but I find it hard to believe in the cases I've seen that my ASW forces are having such bad luck!
I ran one last evening with Stingray torpedoes and it did much better than I've often seen with Mk.46 fish. That could be just good luck (for a pleasant change!) or better torpedoes?

In any case the adding noise aught to put things more toward "real" life - you obviously are stuck with what the program can do even with all us customers wanting the kitchen sink and more

.
The other oddity - Damaged subs with 30% or a bit more still running around at 31 knots (Victor III again). struck me as odd, but I don't know the damage model.

I look forward to getting the next patch - should be interesting to see how it does! In any case I appreciate the continuous improvements made and the fact that people listen to us squawking customers!

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(.) (.)

...V...

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Post #: 15

RE: Harpoon - 8/7/2008 7:08:56 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
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From: The Rock, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owl
Hi Brad,
What IS the aquisition range of torpedoes? I can say in the sistuations I'm most concerned with (and it is in the vein of trying to help improve the game, not "bitching") I know where the sub is - it's a little red v and a dot - and I am dropping the torpedo within a mile. I think that covers the aquisition range part.

Acquisition range depends entirely upon the particular torpedo in question. Some lightweight torpedo examples:

Russian AT-2: 1,000 yd
UK Stingray: 2,000 yd
US Mk 46 Mod 2: 500 yd
US Mk 50 Barracuda: 3,000 yd

As you can see, it varies considerably and even the relatively modern Stingray has an acquisition range of only roughly one nautical mile (1 nm). So dropping anything but the very best torpedoes from a mile or more away is not going to produce many successful engagements.

quote:

I'm sure subs have countermeasures and I am unsure how good they are, but they should run out at some point so later torpedoes should have greater odds of hitting. I do know that dice rolls can sometimes give some pretty odd odds (no pun intended!) but I find it hard to believe in the cases I've seen that my ASW forces are having such bad luck!

No countermeasures at work here, which is one realism issue I'd like to see remedied in future patches.

quote:

I ran one last evening with Stingray torpedoes and it did much better than I've often seen with Mk.46 fish. That could be just good luck (for a pleasant change!) or better torpedoes?

The Stingray is undoubtedly better than most Mk 46 variants.

quote:

In any case the adding noise aught to put things more toward "real" life - you obviously are stuck with what the program can do even with all us customers wanting the kitchen sink and more . The other oddity - Damaged subs with 30% or a bit more still running around at 31 knots (Victor III again). struck me as odd, but I don't know the damage model. I look forward to getting the next patch - should be interesting to see how it does! In any case I appreciate the continuous improvements made and the fact that people listen to us squawking customers!

Step by step, this game is incrementally becoming better and better. I'm glad you understand the nature of the process.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to Owl)

Post #: 16

RE: Harpoon - 8/7/2008 11:01:09 PM

Owl

Posts: 179
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From: Portland, OR
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That's a pretty short aquisition range for the Mk.46 - with a target sub already zipping along at 30+ knots if the fish doesn't see it right away the sub is likely to be out of the sonar range already.

I'm sure you already know of this one, but it's a cheat I have to admit I use - I drop a couple fish in different places on ambiguous contacts. When I click on the torpedo in the platform display it tells me range to contact for each. A bit of geometry and I know pretty much where my target is at.

I try not to do it, honest! I have no willpower though, particularly when the dang sub has put a fish into the guts of one of my ships or boats! I'm a bad person....