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RE: Small Ship, Big War

 
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RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 7:03:15 AM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		well, in game terms - the operation was a major success for japanese player

in war terms - let's see if any freighters survive...

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RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 11:41:28 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

well, in game terms - the operation was a major success for japanese player

in war terms - let's see if any freighters survive...


Major success? Really? 1 CL and 1 DD + ?AKs vs. 1 CL, 13 DD + some PTs... a success, but i would not consider it major success, and it this point in the war, it COULD be that the Allies come out ahead in relative strengths (i.e. maybe it decreased IJN strength by 2%, Allied strength by 1%), the sad math of attrition warfare... but, it's hard to know since we are only getting a worm's eye view of the war...

i'd say a MAJOR success is one that succeeded in stopping the Allied operation, which i doubt will happen here.

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Post #: 3152
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 12:55:12 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		This late in the war, I just view the Japanese fleet as currency to be spent in exchange for Allied ships.  The IJN -will- get sunk.  Whether it gets sunk in port because Allied LBA blankets the Pacific, or sunk by CVs or LBA trying to scurry from here to there, or sunk in battle - the IJN *will* get sunk.

Altho a somewhat fatalistic view, I then consider where is the most equitable trade is to be had.  Getting sunk in between ports nets nothing obviously.  Getting pounded in port (altho difficult to actually sink) nets nothing as well. 

Last option being, trying take as much down with you, as you can.  Planning and seizing those opportunities are tough; but CF has certainly accomplished it.  Trading a CL for a CL as 1-to-1 trade this late in the war is difficult to manage at best, given the odds are that the IJN CL would be sunk in transit or in port otherwise, makes an "even exchange" a good thing.  And popping all those DDs is certainly nothing but cream.

Sure, it's not going to really dimish the Allied OB.  But again, CF "traded" in much to his favor, which again, is extremely difficult at this stage (and will only get harder). 

While they're not playing for points (I'm guessing they're not), he probably racked up 120+ points, which further translates to the Allied player needing 240+ points to regain the ground for 2x victory in 1945.  Granted, that one major air-battle, but it illustrates the opportunity cost of the battle.

-F-

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Post #: 3153
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 1:09:14 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		It's a major success - many enemy ships sunk, SCTF ran away from all those aircraft, the losses include only a crippled CL, PLUS the goal of the operation - bringing some supplies to the atoll was made like 60% more possible. What would you want from IJN in 1944 to call it a success? Blocking Panama Channel?

And it's only in GAME TERMS - points, lack of DD's at the very scene for now, LCU resupplied, so they can hold a week or two more... It's not a whole-campaign-kickass-victory-woozah!

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Post #: 3154
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 1:27:12 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

It's a major success - many enemy ships sunk, SCTF ran away from all those aircraft, the losses include only a crippled CL, PLUS the goal of the operation - bringing some supplies to the atoll was made like 60% more possible. What would you want from IJN in 1944 to call it a success? Blocking Panama Channel?

And it's only in GAME TERMS - points, lack of DD's at the very scene for now, LCU resupplied, so they can hold a week or two more... It's not a whole-campaign-kickass-victory-woozah!

Well, if sitting on the sea-bottom is called crippled, yes, the NATORI was crippled, and so was the WAKAZUKI "crippled" in a similar fashion, and we still don't know the cost to AKs. KIRISHIMA and TONE will be "in the shop" for a while - assuming they don't sink a week later as IJN ships are prone to do.


A success, yes, but a minor one... any success should be savored at this point of the war.

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Post #: 3155
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 1:34:53 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		Crippled IN a fight - and sunk after that by SBD. Minor losses to the aircraft that is

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Post #: 3156
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 1:38:03 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

Crippled IN a fight - and sunk after that by SBD. Minor losses to the aircraft that is



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Post #: 3157
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 2:16:32 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		enough already, got all anglosaxon mr-knowitalls at work here to argue with you upon some pointless misunderstanding

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Post #: 3158
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 4:55:06 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

enough already, got all anglosaxon mr-knowitalls at work here to argue with you upon some pointless misunderstanding

It is generally not considered within the bounds of forum etiquette to make (apparently) racially motivated insults.


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Post #: 3159
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 7:13:15 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		is "anglosaxon" a race? there are only 3 human races, and 3 their mixes...

ok, sorry if you're insulted

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Post #: 3160
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 9:21:08 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Durbik

is "anglosaxon" a race? there are only 3 human races, and 3 their mixes...

ok, sorry if you're insulted



I normally read these AAR's but withhold comment.

I realize Durbik, that you are new, but you should read the "must reads". Most importantly , read this one:

Needless to say, we have had some complaints lately about the lack of moderation on the WITP forums. After discussions with management we announce the following:

All that has gone before now is forgiven, the past is the past.

However, from this point forward, we will institute two types of limits:

(1) Family Language. Use of offensive language will not be tolerated. This will be treated as a family site. So use language you would be comfortable with your wives, mothers, girlfriends, kids, grandkids, etc. viewing. This include limits on thinly veiled words, like using obvious substitutes or pictures. So if we can figure out that you are using offensive langugage, then you are using offensive language.

(2) Issues not people. The personal attacks will cease. There will be no favorites.

< Message edited by jwilkerson -- 2/23/2008 3:00:53 PM >

By comment on one's ancestory you , to most people , would be considered as making a personal attack. I suspect that English is not your 1st language. May I suggest politely that you might want to issue a more specific apology to all concerned? I don't know if rtrapasso is insulted , but as someone with some anglo-saxon ancestors myself , I certainly took some offense.

As I suggested before , a clearer apology would not be amiss and would certainly be welcome. And it would be better if you issued it before a moderator became involved.

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Post #: 3161
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:09:31 PM   
Mobeer


Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		To everyone,

You are kind of breaking up the story here. I'd personally prefer more Cuttlefish posts and less commentary; that's the appeal of this AAR compared to others.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 3162
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:17:33 PM   
Durbik


Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline 		:sigh: I knew that was a wrog idea just to register here, one just can't stand all the political correctness involved. I not really "new" - just registered long time after I found this forum, reading some AAR's only to that time. And I'm enjoying it still - especially this one - but this is my last post, period.

My point was that if you see some new person, not a native english speaker (now that's a major offense!) try not to show your eldership, superiority, omni-knowledge, and stuff. It's just... funny.

It's rather surprising that someone can be offended by being called 'an anglosaxon' - maybe it's the mr. knowitall thing you don't like? Well, I'm just sharing my personal experiences here - not all anglosaxon are such, surely... But many, many are. I'm working in a hostel now, and facing the HEY-I'M-A-TOURIST-IN-YOUR-BARBARIC-COUNTRY-BOW-BEFORE-MY-DOLLAR scheme everyday. So I'm just tired with this.

Like I said - last one from my part, sorry Cuttlefish... But remember all of you: next time you hear, tell, or laugh to a polish-joke: there are 40 mln people at least being offended by it. And nobody would mock a newcomer for this

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Post #: 3163
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:33:42 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Hmm, personally I don't find the term "anglo-saxon" offensive. It'd be like describing me as Celtic - yes, yes I am and there's no offence in being so labelled.

With that said it does seem that Durbik has brought a certain chip vis a vis American tourists onto the forum. Although, I do agree with his point re: Polish jokes. If we'd been subjected to a Polish joke I doubt we'd have seen the reaction from forum members and "higher ups" that we have seen to his relatively benign "anglo-saxon know it alls" comment.

I think BOTH sides should just back off. Threatening him with consequences unless he apologises ( for what is a really benign labelling ) is a major over-reaction and not at all likely to get an apology out of him.

I think everyone's made their point. Let's draw a line under it and see if it happens again. If it does then Durbik's the problem, if it doesn't then all's well.


Durbik - Your last post is uncalled for. Now you're just reacting and letting a fight brew. I suggest you edit it, let things quiet down for a day and then see what the lie of the land is.

(in reply to Durbik)
Post #: 3164
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:39:39 PM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		Go Hibiki!!!

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Post #: 3165
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:50:21 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		Durbik, something has obviously touched a nerve here. Having traveled a bit and seen how some American tourists behave I am not sure I blame you. But while this little distraction has not exactly thrilled me I have appreciated your comments and would be sorry to see you stop posting.

Now let's get back to the war, shall we?

(in reply to Durbik)
Post #: 3166
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:51:57 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Durbik, something has obviously touched a nerve here. Having traveled a bit and seen how some American tourists behave I am not sure I blame you. But while this little distraction has not exactly thrilled me I have appreciated your comments and would be sorry to see you stop posting.

Now let's get back to the war, shall we?



Yes! Yes! More about the war, please

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Post #: 3167
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:52:37 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		May 7, 1944

Location: 280 miles north of Yap
Course: Holding position
Attached to: TF 23
Mission: Air combat
System Damage: 1
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 308

Orders: Cover supply convoy heading towards Ulithi

---

As Tanaka’s ships leave the area the Japanese carriers move to the north. This removes them from dive-bomber range of Woleai but still leaves them in position to keep fighters in the air over the freighters. They are aided in this by Reisen fighters flown into Ulithi from Saipan now that aviation fuel is once again available.

There are sporadic enemy air attacks on Ulithi throughout the day, mostly raids by small groups of two-engine bombers. The fighters succeed in deflecting most of them, though one freighter is struck by a bomb and another rattled by a miss close enough to loosen some hull plates. No air strikes target the carrier groups, which are now out of range of the SBD and B-25 bombers which seem to be the mainstays of the enemy air force at Woleai.

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Post #: 3168
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 10:55:36 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		May 8, 1944

Location: 280 miles north of Yap
Course: Holding position
Attached to: TF 23
Mission: Air combat
System Damage: 1
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 278

Orders: Cover supply convoy heading towards Ulithi

---

“Good news, Exec,” says Captain Ishii as Lieutenant Miharu reaches the bridge. “The transports are finally done unloading. We will be retiring to the north as soon as night falls.”

“I am glad to hear it, sir,” says the lieutenant. “I hope that the operation has been a success.”

Ishii nods. “It seems that over 80% of the cargo was delivered intact,” he says, “and I know we embarked something like 40,000 tons. That should keep the men there in rice and dried cuttlefish for a while.”

“Very good,” says Miharu. “Will we be returning to Japan, sir?”

“Possibly,” says Ishii. “I don’t know.” He takes a look at the lieutenant’s earnest and slightly worried expression.

“Relax, Exec,” he says. “I am sure she is fine. The baby is not due for another five or six months, right?”

“Yes sir.”

“I know it is hard not to worry,” says Ishii. “But I speak from experience. Your part is over for the moment. The rest is up to her and it will happen whether you are there or not.”

“I know, sir,” Miharu says. But he looks unconvinced. Captain Ishii does not try to persuade him further. Those left at home are why we fight, he thinks. But there is a price.

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Post #: 3169
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/17/2008 11:15:29 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Gentlemen, no fighting in the war room

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Post #: 3170
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 12:33:37 AM   
Heeward


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Lacey Washington
Status: offline 		Assuming the Hibiki returns directly to Japan it would be interesting to see how the IJN's twin victories at Ulithi and Woleai and is presented in the newspapers?


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Post #: 3171
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 12:39:58 AM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		"Dried cuttlefish"?



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Post #: 3172
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 2:56:53 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

No air strikes target the carrier groups, which are now out of range of the SBD and B-25 bombers which seem to be the mainstays of the enemy air force at Woleai.


Interesting -- I would have thought that the B-25's would have longer "legs". Did our boys aboard the Hibiki identify any upgraded models of the P-38, such as the long-range P-38J?

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Post #: 3173
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 2:56:54 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

"Dried cuttlefish"?




One does get the impression that maybe high command isn't so pleased, eh?

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Post #: 3174
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 1:25:34 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		How could the high command be happy about anything with the Allies constantly pushing the Japanese forces back?

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Post #: 3175
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 3:10:31 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I would say that this was a highly successful operation.  We have all the American sinkings in exchange for just a few ships backed up by the delivery of a massive amoutn of cargo to the base in question.  Solid planning, excellent execution, and good results.  One cannot complain this late into 1944...


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Post #: 3176
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 5:43:56 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I would say that this was a highly successful operation.  We have all the American sinkings in exchange for just a few ships backed up by the delivery of a massive amoutn of cargo to the base in question.  Solid planning, excellent execution, and good results.  One cannot complain this late into 1944...



I'm not so sure... It seems like 80% of the cargo was delivered, which would mean 20% was sunk before it got there or it could be unloaded, there may even be less than 80% of the supplies delivered. After all, Hibiki's crew will only know what info they've received through official channels...

EDIT: Although delivering 80% of the supplies would be a victory of sorts

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Post #: 3177
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 6:06:58 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3799
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		always got to see the negative don't you dixie

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Post #: 3178
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 6:13:42 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I was actually just thinking about Lt. Turnby and those other PoWs in the Solomons...

Was Rabaul every recaptured by the Allies, and he the PT crew ever set free?  Or were they moved beforehand to another location (perhaps with different guards)?

The Allied advane seems to be accellerating, and I was wondering about some of our previous side plots.

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Post #: 3179
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 7/18/2008 6:28:35 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I was actually just thinking about Lt. Turnby and those other PoWs in the Solomons...

Was Rabaul every recaptured by the Allies, and he the PT crew ever set free?  Or were they moved beforehand to another location (perhaps with different guards)?

The Allied advane seems to be accellerating, and I was wondering about some of our previous side plots.


Turnby and the other Allied POWs are now in Japan. Rabaul is still in Japanese hands, though it has been isolated for a long time now. Hibiki's crew hears that the sizeable garrison there spends most of their time farming and fishing. To the best of the crew's knowledge the Solomons are all still Japanese and Gadarukanaru in particular remains an active base.

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