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Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/19/2008 11:43:16 PM   
KG Erwin


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This is NOT a political thread, so, guys, don't get this locked. However, it IS a reality that folks are spending less money on entertainment what with actual living expenses (food, gas, utilities) increasing.

So, if I'm gonna spend more time hanging out at home on my days off, I need a new game. ONE new game. To be honest, I'm approaching burnout with my present collection.

I've thought about Forge of Freedom, but it looks too intimidating. For the Civil War, I wanna fight the battles. I'm considering the Battleground Collection, as I'm familiar with the series.

Seriously, though, I hope that the developers of these games will start focusing on "why should I buy this game?" as the economic crunch is for real, and competition for the entertainment dollar is gonna get fierce.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 7/19/2008 11:44:01 PM >
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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/19/2008 11:57:48 PM   
Sarge


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Get WITP if your looking for long term (years) of gaming , the return to cost ratio in WITP is by far the leader in all category’s important to war gamers/ grognards.



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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:03:35 AM   
panzers

 

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Need to be careful on this one, but is it just me or is this country headed for a fall the likes we have not seen since the fall of Berlin?
I really fear for the whole world right now. Not much into these things, but doesn't the world economy reovlve around Wall Street?
I am 49 years old, and I have seen a lot of good times as well as bad, but never have I experienced anything even remotely as dangerous as this. I want to say more about this. but if I did, then it would be more political. But I would love to have some of your input on this. And I offer all you guys a challenge: let's really try on this one and see if we can impress Erik with this one.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:05:45 AM   
panzers

 

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And if you do happen to like the WWII genre MWiF will certainly keep you occipied for a good long time when it finally gets released later this year

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:08:56 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers
see if we can impress Erik with this one.

The best way to do it would be to delete this post.

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Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 5
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:11:30 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Ok, I'm not impressed with this thread so far. Let's rephrase the question into one that is more focused on the key question:

Which game in the Matrix catalog offers the most "bang for the buck" in terms of $/Hours Spent Entertained?

If you can focus on that question without derailing the thread further into doom and gloom, I'll let it live.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:17:55 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin
I need a new game.

Me, too. Economic realities aside (and I guess I'm one of the lucky "economically unchallenged"), I don't see much out there right now beyond what I already have - and what I already have is pretty disappointing to me, anymore.

For individual ACW battles, I guess a lot of people like John Tiller's stuff, but I've never gotten into it.

Forge of Freedom might be just the thing, if you want to run the strategic end and fight the battles both. AGEod's AACW pretty much abstracts the battles into a "here's how it came out" dynamic, no matter how much they try to pretty it up.

Other things. I can't bring myself to buy Empires in Arms or Guns of August - yet. I am waiting to see how patching and AI development go. I have no interest in trying to get along with six or seven other people throughout the course of however long a game of Empires in Arms might take, and seeing how many of them stick it through to the finish. Guns of August? I like the subject, but the more I look at it, the less I like it. Those odd stacks in what try to be hexes on very uninteresting and unintegrated terrain just don't do it for me.

I don't see anything else out there. The AGEod area movement games in addition to AACW (Birth of America 1 - which I have - and 2 and Campaigns of Napoleon) leave me a little flat. I guess I'm still kind of a hex-based, day- or week-turn kind of guy.

So, I sit on my wallet. When it comes to deciding whether a new game is good enough to buy, I feel like Justice Brennan of the U.S. Supreme Court did about identifying pornography: "When I see it, I'll know it."

If you find anything good, keep us posted, willya? You have always been the kind of guy whose judgment I respect.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 7
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:20:40 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Pasternakski,

Have you looked at the new Kharkov release? I think that's a great good old hex-based wargame and a really fun battle.

Gary's WBTS is also a fantastic game and gives us three great ACW grand strategy titles to decide between when we get that itch.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 8
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:24:12 AM   
ilovestrategy


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I would say WiTP. Seriously, that game is HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:24:50 AM   
KG Erwin


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OK, Erik, then "bang for the buck". Judging from forum topics, WITP is the most popular Matrix Game, followed by a personal fave, SPWAW. Considering my original post, perhaps I misjudged. It is too close to real life to be comfortable. Maybe you should go ahead and lock it.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:32:52 AM   
junk2drive


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Even if you have the money for a new game, will your current computer run it? I don't have the money to upgrade to run some of the newer stuff.

Edit to stay within guidelines

SPWAW, free and runs on old boxes

JTCS, 3 games for the price of one, runs on old and Vista, still being developed

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 7/20/2008 12:35:15 AM >

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 1:38:46 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Pasternakski,

Have you looked at the new Kharkov release? I think that's a great good old hex-based wargame and a really fun battle.

Gary's WBTS is also a fantastic game and gives us three great ACW grand strategy titles to decide between when we get that itch.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks, Erik. Before I say anything else, I want to reiterate what I have said many times before: I am a staunch supporter of Matrix Games, and a longtime cash customer. I hope most earnestly for your success, as the games you have published brought - and bring - me a great deal of pleasure, and I am an admirer of your work.

The Kharkov release is from a development group I no longer trust, and I have no inclination to buy any more of their products. That's all I have to say on that subject.

Grigsby's entire line of area-movement products based on the system he (with some help, of course) developed for GGWaW don't move me. In fact, I bought heavily into area-movement games through the AGEod products. I liked 'em for awhile, but later came to realize that they did not satisfy my rather odd desire for specificity of information.

A lot hides "under the hood" in area-movement games. You don't "see" all the details in the way I prefer.

So, I remain on the sidelines. As I have stated many times before, the problems with UV/WitP have led me to conclude that they are designs that can never be improved on to the degree of making them palatable to a gamer like me. There's just too much there that leaves me shaking my head in dismay. At the same time, area movement games "get away" with a lot of sleight-of-hand that keeps the player at a distance in a way that puts a distance these days between such games and my wallet.

I know I have been standoffish about games that try to combine the strategic aspects with tactical battle control, but, so far, I am unimpressed. Such games (and we all know which ones they are) seem to me to lose the strategic feel while at the same time presenting the tactical in such a way that is just unpalatable to me.

An example of that is how one of those games abstracts all terrain into a half-dozen templates, then expects you to be satisfied playing out a tactical battle in an area that you know completely (and selected as ground for the battle because you thought it would favor you) as though what you're doing is about as relevant to the strategic side of the game to which you will return after the battle is over as playing a pinball machine is relevant to Shakespearean theater.

Just me, I know, and I apologize if this post seems unduly critical, because I do not mean it to be.

The bottom line, for me and for me alone, is that I am not much of a computer gamer these days, because I can't find anything that interests me anymore - and I have tried, oh, how I have tried.

I plan to keep on trying, but I need products that are really principled and designed with a clearly defined goal in mind that is sought - and achieved, at least in large measure - by the finished product.

That's one of the things that made me a great fan of Grigsby's games back in the early days. Flawed they were, and extremely limited, but they set out to do one thing: put the player in a clearly-defined driver's seat, give him what was available to his historical counterpart, and d@mn the torpedoes from there.

I guess what I am really saying is that I see contemporary computer wargames as lacking focus and constraint, because they try too hard to pander to open-endedness and "modding."

Okay. The anklyosaurus will crawl back into his retreat of extinction now. Thanks for listening. Sorry about the verbosity.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 12
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 1:55:10 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
I plan to keep on trying, but I need products that are really principled and designed with a clearly defined goal in mind that is sought - and achieved, at least in large measure - by the finished product.

That's one of the things that made me a great fan of Grigsby's games back in the early days. Flawed they were, and extremely limited, but they set out to do one thing: put the player in a clearly-defined driver's seat, give him what was available to his historical counterpart, and d@mn the torpedoes from there.


Thanks for your thoughts - I really think you need to take a second look at War Between the States though, as I think it's one of Gary's best games ever and meets your criteria above, even though it's area based.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

Regards,

- Erik


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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 2:22:26 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Even if you have the money for a new game, will your current computer run it? I don't have the money to upgrade to run some of the newer stuff.

Heh.
Same here. I quit mainstream gaming because of that.
Actually, it's not like I don't have money to upgrade my computer. I just think that sacrificing my other expenses (like books, music CDs, comics and actual games) just to get new junk wouldn't be very healthy.

As for the games themselves...
I'm playing CCMT since it was released and there aren't any signs of me stopping playing it any time soon (which is probably because I'm a modder and it's good for modding - the only thing that could make me stop playing it would be a sequel.) and it's for 21 Euro.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 3:40:23 AM   
Zap


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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

Need to be careful on this one, but is it just me or is this country headed for a fall the likes we have not seen since the fall of Berlin?




Not being sarcastic, but I think it is your perception not how I see it at all. I have in mind a couple games I want to purchase here.


< Message edited by Zap -- 7/20/2008 3:42:51 AM >


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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 4:13:50 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Thanks for your thoughts - I really think you need to take a second look at War Between the States though, as I think it's one of Gary's best games ever and meets your criteria above, even though it's area based.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

Regards,

- Erik


...and I hope most fervently to find it here.

The problem, though, is this. All through my life, whenever I find something I like, it always gets discontinued, because nobody else will buy it. So, I wind up without the things I value most (at least in terms of material goods).

Keep puttin' 'em out, though, Erik, I still plan on spending a lot of my hard-earned shekels on your products.

And thanks for not minding that I am honest enough to speak my mind here. Just one of the many things that make me a believer in Matrix.

Salut!

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 4:45:58 AM   
IronWarrior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Grigsby's entire line of area-movement products based on the system he (with some help, of course) developed for GGWaW don't move me. In fact, I bought heavily into area-movement games through the AGEod products. I liked 'em for awhile, but later came to realize that they did not satisfy my rather odd desire for specificity of information.

A lot hides "under the hood" in area-movement games. You don't "see" all the details in the way I prefer.



I agree with Erik, WBTS is an excellent game. I was skeptical at first, I had tried the demo for AGEOD's Napoleon game and was bored to tears. I hate to say that as they were nice enough to provide a demo, but it just wasn't fun for me. I don't know how different their ACW game is, maybe it was better.

I can relate to what you're saying about area-movement and things hiding under the hood, but really this game gives you plenty of things to think about and do, and they do it well enough that I don't find myself feeling that I'm missing those things. The FOW and command & control are very well done, best I've seen so far.

Now if someone would take me up on a PBEM game, I'll be set :).


< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 7/20/2008 4:47:28 AM >

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 5:21:56 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior
I can relate to what you're saying about area-movement and things hiding under the hood, but really this game gives you plenty of things to think about and do, and they do it well enough that I don't find myself feeling that I'm missing those things. The FOW and command & control are very well done, best I've seen so far.


I know, I know, I freely admit I'm an old fart with old fart ideas, but I just cannot get past the creepy Axis & Allies feeling the entire series of Grigsby GGWaW-based games gives me.

The thing about AGEod's AACW that attracted me, and still does to some extent, is that it treats the war comprehensively. I've never been big on campaign-sized games and was hoping that this game would evolve quickly into a comprehensive game on the Napolenic era that I would dearly love to see (I hoped for five years that Matrix EiA would be it, but, despite my sincerest admiration for the yeoman efforts of Marshall Ellis and his staff for having accomplished as much as they have, that ain't it - at least not yet).

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Put my faith in the people
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And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 5:28:52 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

That's one of the things that made me a great fan of Grigsby's games back in the early days. Flawed they were, and extremely limited, but they set out to do one thing: put the player in a clearly-defined driver's seat, give him what was available to his historical counterpart, and d@mn the torpedoes from there.

Yeah, I miss such approach too.
I don't really like wargames that try to put me into multiple roles.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 5:40:10 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I don't really like wargames that try to put me into multiple roles.

Yeah, you know? Or don't give you a clear idea of who you are. Am I Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, or am I Commander Genda? Am I in charge of piers and warehouses, or am I Admiral Yamamoto? Am I Admiral Tanaka dangerously sliding down the Slot or am I the Spirit of the Yamato People slipping down the Drain?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 6:06:05 AM   
Greybriar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I'm not impressed with this thread so far. Let's rephrase the question into one that is more focused on the key question:

Which game in the Matrix catalog offers the most "bang for the buck" in terms of $/Hours Spent Entertained?....


That's the way to cut to the chase!

Gary Grigsby (War In The Pacific & War Between the States, to name two) has been around a long time and his games are worthy of consideration. I've been a fan of his since SSI released Pacific War.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 9:09:28 AM   
JudgeDredd


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From what I read in your post KG WitP isn't what you are looking for. Lots of people love it. I often fire it up...and close it straight back down again...being too over powered by the size of the task. I have no real idea what I am to do. There are "no objectives"...specific objectives...only, grab the land with what you have and destroy the enemy....from there it's up to you.

Alot of people like that...and I would like to, but it's just tooo vague for me...I needed WitP to take me through a tale...tell me as a primary objective, I have to grab Island X and as a secondary Island Y and I need to do it in z turns.

If you think Forge of Freedom is too intimidating, I have no idea how you would get on with WitP.

By the way, Forge of Freedom is a fantastic game. I didn't find it too daunting at all. I'm always learning more and more things, but the game is superb. The interface is a little clunky, but get past it and your in with a shout for having some serious Civil War fun.

What I will say is this...I was not a fan of GG "area" based games at all. I had GG:WaW and just did not like it. Monthly turns and "generic" production mixed with vague battle stats just left me cold and confused...but GG:WbtS is a different kettle of fish. The "area" play somehow works. Combat, although still vague seems to work for the era.

I was very, very pleasantly surprised with War Between The States. I didn't think I would play another GG game...but this one changed my mind.

But ultimately it's your money.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 9:14:09 AM   
Widell


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Which game in the Matrix catalog offers the most "bang for the buck" in terms of $/Hours Spent Entertained?....



I'd second WitP, and add TOAW, AGEOD:ACW as well as AT (even more bang for the buck if you are into scenario design) to the mix. Seems as if GG's War between the States will be up there as well, but I haven't bought it yet. Will wait until after vacation when there's more time for gaming.


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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 11:19:59 AM   
Hard Sarge


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for GGWBTS and FoF, I was a beta tester on both, and I think they are both great games, just they are not alike, and are pretty much as far apart in style as you can get !

but both do what they are trying to do, very well

WBTS is a much HARDer and detailed game then it may look, and is right up there with the just one more turn and I will go to bed things, I have been shocked at how many times, I kept on trying for that one more turn

FoF can be set up to play pretty much as you want, make it as easy on you or as HARD as you want it to be (not meaning gameplay, but how the game works)

either one should give you your money and time worths


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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 11:34:47 AM   
terje439


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I would agree that atm you will get the most hours out of your cash from WitP, that semingly not being an option I would go for FoF, or I would wait for MWiF.

But no matter what game you chose, the thing I really like about games from Matrix is that you will get your Qs answered at the forum rather rapidly!

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Post #: 25
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/20/2008 12:50:07 PM   
105mm Howitzer


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Thanks, that answers my (untold) question, as to what game, if any out there in hexland, does WItP ressembles. Now I know, and I'll give it a whirl.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I'm not impressed with this thread so far. Let's rephrase the question into one that is more focused on the key question:

Which game in the Matrix catalog offers the most "bang for the buck" in terms of $/Hours Spent Entertained?....


That's the way to cut to the chase!

Gary Grigsby (War In The Pacific & War Between the States, to name two) has been around a long time and his games are worthy of consideration. I've been a fan of his since SSI released Pacific War.



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Post #: 26
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/21/2008 6:59:21 PM   
YohanTM2

 

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While waiting for MWiF and hopefully a playable version of EiA I have been playing John Tiller's Campaign Series. With the recent 1.03 patch Matrix has shown a strong commitment to hie game.

Normally my buddies and I prefer strategic games but this one has been a fun PBEM effort.

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Post #: 27
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/22/2008 8:56:59 PM   
Sarganto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I would say WiTP. Seriously, that game is HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

#2

You won't ever regret it, if you buy it.
Just bring enough time :D
A lot of...

< Message edited by Sarganto -- 7/22/2008 8:57:11 PM >


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Post #: 28
RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/22/2008 9:08:48 PM   
panzers

 

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I've had the game for quite some time now and I have heard all these wonderful comments about the game, but I never played it because it looks too complex, and I just gave up. Maybe I need to give it another try.

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RE: Buying New Games vs Economic Realities - 7/23/2008 4:56:32 AM   
cdbeck


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I agree with Judge Dredd, I had Uncommon Valor, would boot it up, then shut it back down for lack of any idea what the heck I should be doing. I just don't know enough about naval warfare or the pacific in general and I felt like Paster up there, am I supposed to be the admiral or the guy loading up supplies on the docks. With WitP/Uncommon Valor, you have to be both.

I think that Advanced Tactics gives the most bang for the buck. The random map generator and the user made scenarios are amazing. You can play it over and over and get totally different things. The tech development is up to you, so you can chose the route you want. It is also a little cheaper than the other Matrix games out there, so the buck is lower.

GGWBTS looks to have huge promise, but I just haven't played it yet. I'm going to get around to it soon though.

SoM


_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to panzers)
Post #: 30
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