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Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs

 
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Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/5/2008 12:47:57 AM   
Andvari

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		If I'm approaching an invasion site and I know PT boats are awaiting me, can my CV covering force squadrons sink or at least keep them from thwarting the invasion?

Do I set a squadron or two of Zeroes on Naval Attack at 100 feet to accomplish this? Any other tactics to keep them from spoiling the show--CAs or CLs in the Transport TF, I guess?
Post #: 1
RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/5/2008 2:14:12 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		1. set one or more of your float planes from your CAs/BBs on recon over the hex to spot them good.

2. Put a A6M2 squadron on naval attack at 100'

3. Send a Suface combat TF with 1 CL and 4 DDs ( two of these if you have them ) Set them to patrol/do not retire and follow the
invasion TF.

That should be enough.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/5/2008 3:43:46 AM   
Mynok


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More DDs if you have them. I prefer 6 or 8. CL(s) plus DDs are the best against PTs. If you have Nick's or any other FB, use them at 100' naval attack.


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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/5/2008 4:27:13 AM   
niceguy2005


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Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Agreed.  Historically zeros were effective against PTs on patrol.  But a squadron of PT boats is another thing.  You will want surface ships to screen an invastion force.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 10:02:24 AM   
jumper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


More DDs if you have them. I prefer 6 or 8. CL(s) plus DDs are the best against PTs. If you have Nick's or any other FB, use them at 100' naval attack.



You don´t have to set fighter bombers on 100 ft. They will attack PTs and barges during the regular naval attack mission..

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 2:08:16 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


More DDs if you have them. I prefer 6 or 8. CL(s) plus DDs are the best against PTs. If you have Nick's or any other FB, use them at 100' naval attack.



You don´t have to set fighter bombers on 100 ft. They will attack PTs and barges during the regular naval attack mission..



True - but they won't STRAFE on regular Naval Attack mission... and the strafing is pretty hard on the PTs (and barges)...

Be aware that in the past, strafing PTs was a pretty regular cause of the sync bug - however, i haven't heard of it under 1.8xx (knock on wood...)

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 2:26:10 PM   
jumper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


More DDs if you have them. I prefer 6 or 8. CL(s) plus DDs are the best against PTs. If you have Nick's or any other FB, use them at 100' naval attack.



You don´t have to set fighter bombers on 100 ft. They will attack PTs and barges during the regular naval attack mission..



True - but they won't STRAFE on regular Naval Attack mission... and the strafing is pretty hard on the PTs (and barges)...

Be aware that in the past, strafing PTs was a pretty regular cause of the sync bug - however, i haven't heard of it under 1.8xx (knock on wood...)


In my experience strafing usually cause just a very light damage and is not worth of the losses caused by PTs flak (It might be different with barges) and the risk of not passing the morale/experience test for this mission.
Unfortunately until A6M5c arrives by the end of 43, the Japan is stucked with single FB sentai (36 planes) so the strafing is the only option how to get the planes to fight against PTs. But the bomb hits are what counts. Cannon and machine gun hits are just a side benefits nice to watch but with just a small effect. If I could avoid it (and with 80xp FBs I can) I would do it.


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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 2:33:11 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


More DDs if you have them. I prefer 6 or 8. CL(s) plus DDs are the best against PTs. If you have Nick's or any other FB, use them at 100' naval attack.



You don´t have to set fighter bombers on 100 ft. They will attack PTs and barges during the regular naval attack mission..



True - but they won't STRAFE on regular Naval Attack mission... and the strafing is pretty hard on the PTs (and barges)...

Be aware that in the past, strafing PTs was a pretty regular cause of the sync bug - however, i haven't heard of it under 1.8xx (knock on wood...)


In my experience strafing usually cause just a very light damage and is not worth of the losses caused by PTs flak (It might be different with barges) and the risk of not passing the morale/experience test for this mission.
Unfortunately until A6M5c arrives by the end of 43, the Japan is stucked with single FB sentai (36 planes) so the strafing is the only option how to get the planes to fight against PTs. But the bomb hits are what counts. Cannon and machine gun hits are just a side benefits nice to watch but with just a small effect. If I could avoid it (and with 80xp FBs I can) I would do it.



i've had a lot of PTs shot up and occasionally sunk by Zero cannons... often, you can get a "mission kill" even if you don't sink them.

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Post #: 8
RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 2:42:39 PM   
Nomad


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From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		And don't forget that Zeros, Nates, Claudes, and Oscars all carry small ( 30 - 60 kg ) bombs. A PT boat is has no armour and a durability of 1. Even a small bomb will do extensive damage. I use fairly low experience Nates for this duty. It works fine.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 3:36:41 PM   
jumper

 

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With regular fighters you have no other option. If you want them to attack PTs they have to strafe. But its their 30/60kg bomb what brings definitive results and not strafing. The best way to get rid of those PTs is to drop bombs on them. Fighter bombers can do it without flying at 100ft and suffer from deadly low level AA fire. Setting fighter bombers to 100ft attack is unnecessary risk for your pilots in exchange for just a very small additional benefit (strafing). Is it possible to damage PT by strafing? Yes but not easily. Is it possible to sink it? Yes, but that is even harder. Would be strafing (if there was no bombs droping) itself worth of anything? I believe no.
 
This is a good example:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Timoeka at 45,81

Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 destroyed, 14 damaged

Allied Ships
PT PT-336, Shell hits 12
PT PT-339
PT PT-335
PT PT-338
PT PT-341, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-337, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

PT-336 was not even smoking when next day my surface TF arrived. Machine guns are useless. No matter if PT has armor or not..


Jacks are better as they have heavier armament. This was my best attack so far, but still:

Day Air attack on TF, near Timoeka at 45,81

Japanese aircraft
J2M Jack x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT PT-300, Shell hits 16, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-283, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

PT-283 went down after the bomb hit. It was lightly smoking before. PT-300 remained and fought next day.
 
After a several days it is still there ruining my air attacks:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Timoeka at 45,81

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT PT-300,  heavy damage

Ki-49 are not much better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Timoeka at 45,81

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied Ships
PT PT-340, Shell hits 4
PT PT-335, Bomb hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
PT PT-336

Notice those very high AA fire losses. I have to stop using my crack zeroes in this missions some time ago because the attritional rate was too high. Operational losses (does anybody know if they are higher for this mission?) and AA fire caused I was loosing 5-10 planes (and pilots) for each PT. I have choosed above examples, because it is when I actually hit something. There were countless attack of 80-90xp without any result except AA and ops losses.
If I could switch my Jacks/Helens/Vals for a few fighter bomber sentais which could fly STANDARD naval attacks missions against these PTs I would do it instantly.
 
But as everything else it is matter of taste..
 
 

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Post #: 10
RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 4:57:22 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


More DDs if you have them. I prefer 6 or 8. CL(s) plus DDs are the best against PTs. If you have Nick's or any other FB, use them at 100' naval attack.



You don´t have to set fighter bombers on 100 ft. They will attack PTs and barges during the regular naval attack mission..



True - but they won't STRAFE on regular Naval Attack mission... and the strafing is pretty hard on the PTs (and barges)...

Be aware that in the past, strafing PTs was a pretty regular cause of the sync bug - however, i haven't heard of it under 1.8xx (knock on wood...)


In my experience strafing usually cause just a very light damage and is not worth of the losses caused by PTs flak (It might be different with barges) and the risk of not passing the morale/experience test for this mission.
Unfortunately until A6M5c arrives by the end of 43, the Japan is stucked with single FB sentai (36 planes) so the strafing is the only option how to get the planes to fight against PTs. But the bomb hits are what counts. Cannon and machine gun hits are just a side benefits nice to watch but with just a small effect. If I could avoid it (and with 80xp FBs I can) I would do it.


I've seen Zeros do a pretty good number on PT bases. It takes more than a phase, but they will shoot up PTs pretty good. I do agree, it really sucks though to lose a pilot to flak. That's way naval attack is the way to go.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 5:00:14 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Jumper, those flak losses are horrendous even for 6-12 PTs.  Are you playing Nik Mod by any chance?

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 8:02:15 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Jumper, those flak losses are horrendous even for 6-12 PTs.  Are you playing Nik Mod by any chance?



no it´s stock scen 15 I guess, the game against Hortlund

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 9:55:23 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper
Day Air attack on TF, near Timoeka at 45,81

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT PT-300, heavy damage



What was the experience on those Nicks. I have pretty good success with them against PTs assuming I get a free shot without CAP.


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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 10:15:17 PM   
jumper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Jumper, those flak losses are horrendous even for 6-12 PTs.  Are you playing Nik Mod by any chance?



no it´s stock scen 15 I guess, the game against Hortlund


yup. stock 15 it is..

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 10:19:20 PM   
jumper

 

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Joined: 2/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper
Day Air attack on TF, near Timoeka at 45,81

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT PT-300, heavy damage



What was the experience on those Nicks. I have pretty good success with them against PTs assuming I get a free shot without CAP.



Well, it is hard to say. There is more then 50 pilots in this group of 60-85xp. I never now which ones are flying.. According to the results achieved so far I can just guess that the the elites are sitting in pub while the loosers are doing the dirty job..

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/7/2008 11:25:23 PM   
Mynok


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You can tell who flew by fatigue levels.


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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/8/2008 2:21:16 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Jumper, those flak losses are horrendous even for 6-12 PTs. Are you playing Nik Mod by any chance?



no it´s stock scen 15 I guess, the game against Hortlund

Those flak losses look completely unrealistic to me.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/8/2008 7:24:23 AM   
jumper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You can tell who flew by fatigue levels.



You are right. Good hint. Haven´t thought about that.. I believe It was mixed group mostly made of 65-70xp pilots with one 78xp and one 81xp guy. Some fragments joined the group so there is more pilots with higher fatigue than attacking planes, but I think I was able to track them. This attack is not 100% correct as the group was relocated the day before and many pilots were fatigued what could affect their performance.. Another problem might be that they are not attacking as single large group, but rather in a fragmented small groups of 3-8 planes as there is too many TF.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/8/2008 12:50:44 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
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Status: offline 		Personally I would set a Val squadron to 100' and let them have the PTs (1 bomb hit will do). You can strafe them until the cows come home and not do any serious damage, but a single bomb hit does them him. Zero pilot too valuable to risk on a 1 point easily replaced PT.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/8/2008 3:13:26 PM   
Mynok


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Yes, I also meant to note that Vals only have machine guns if I recall correctly. Not a useful plane against PTs or barges.


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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/10/2008 1:32:45 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Yes, I also meant to note that Vals only have machine guns if I recall correctly. Not a useful plane against PTs or barges.



Umm, read what I said next time please. K?

I said 1 bomb hit (that big thing under the plane) does them in. As far as it not being useful, clearly you have never tried it. I have, and I use it. You are of course free to not listen or even try it. Your choice.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/10/2008 11:00:14 PM   
Mynok


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Um....I have tried it. They suck at it, and have better things to do.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 7/10/2008 11:01:17 PM >

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/10/2008 11:34:40 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well thats why people play WitP. Some people do things differently than others and there is more than 1 way to accomplish goals. You opinion is yours and mine is mine I guess.

I do however feel a Zero pilot isnt worth the risk against a 1 point PT boat. Since the 250kg bombs are near worthless (compaired to the US 1000 bounders the SBDs carry) against the heavier allied ships in the allies bag of tricks, it is in my opinion the best choice for the job at hand.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/11/2008 12:05:12 AM   
Mynok


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Worthless against what? Battleships? So are the 1000 pounders. My Vals do just fine against anything else.


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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/11/2008 7:37:42 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Worthless against what? Battleships? So are the 1000 pounders. My Vals do just fine against anything else.




I do agree here. Playing as Allied I would immediately change all my 1000 pounders to 250 kg AP bombs if I could. Because the smaller AP bomb penetrates everything except the BB, just like Mynok mentions. The 1000 lb GP bomb bounces off from BBs and CAs. While the 1000lb bomb does more damage if it can penetrate, it can´t penetrate the armor of one very important ship class: CA. 250kg AP bombs in the game can sink every ship just fine and it can hurt CAs also, so it would be my preferable bomb if I had to chose between the two. Of course the ideal way would be to have the smaller AP bomb against armored targets and the big GP bomb against unarmored targets but that´s just something we´re dreaming about.

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/12/2008 2:07:20 AM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
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From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		I agree with Mynok not only because he is a smart guy but because he is a thread brother and you gotta love that sig.

< Message edited by Gem35 -- 7/12/2008 2:08:10 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/12/2008 7:09:05 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Heh, wonderful reasoning. I could care less if you listen to the voice of experience or not. /shrug. I do what works for me. Never said you had to follow suit. You want to waste very hard to replace and much more valuable Zero pilots chasing PTs, please be my guest. I hope its me you are doing it to

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RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/21/2008 2:17:41 PM   
Coach Z

 

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From: New York
Status: offline 		Is it normal for the 50 caliber MG and the 20mm Cannon on PT Boats to cause tremendous damage to IJN Destroyers?

Night Time Surface Combat, near Koumac at 67,111

Japanese Ships
DD Yukaze, Shell hits 8,  on fire

Allied Ships
PT PT-115, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-116
PT PT-118
PT PT-119
PT PT-120
 UNBELIEVABLE>>>53 SYS Damage from this incident!


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Post #: 29
RE: Zeroes on Naval Attack Against PTs - 7/21/2008 3:19:01 PM   
hosho


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coach Z

Is it normal for the 50 caliber MG and the 20mm Cannon on PT Boats to cause tremendous damage to IJN Destroyers?

Night Time Surface Combat, near Koumac at 67,111

Japanese Ships
DD Yukaze, Shell hits 8,  on fire

Allied Ships
PT PT-115, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-116
PT PT-118
PT PT-119
PT PT-120
 UNBELIEVABLE>>>53 SYS Damage from this incident!




Those pt pests can drive a guy quite nuts. In my game I couldn`t come near the port moresby because there were some 75-100 pt boats there. Tf composed of 15 or more dd-s didn`t help at all and I lost 2 light cruisers (escorted by 9DD-s) and eventualy gave up on invading ( had to invade the neighbouring hex instead). I don`t know if they were so effective in rl. Doubt it....

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