RE: the Nanny state

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> RE: the Nanny state

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RE: the Nanny state - 7/23/2008 8:09:00 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tremy
If you believe that splitting your cavalry into perhaps three groups and sending those groups 50-60 miles in different directions to reconnoitre, the game is spot on.
I brought the subject up,because I believe than in most circumstances and discounting raiding as a seperate option,commanders would want the Cavalry within 5-20 miles(the same region) so that they could report enemy movement and numbers within an hour or two,so that I might react.In which case the game is forcing the player to act in a way that does not make military sense

Ok, here's where you need to use a little more imagination in the context of the game structure and scale. A game has to be playable, so by asking the player to direct his scouting during his turn, you avoid having to have some kind of separate "cavalry phase" to resolve what happens when an enemy army moves in from/through a particular region. You already know that the player's cavalry was paying attention to that direction.

Realistically, the type of scouting that's going on here often went on between battles. Once armies actually start to move to contact, having the cavalry with you adds combat power which sways which side will win the battle. Sending all your cavalry off scouting to find the enemy and then moving into the enemy territory without your cavalry can significantly affect the outcome of the battle. The defender's cavalry always gets to play a part, but the attacker has to conserve enough of his cavalry's movement to allow them to accompany his forces.

Note that since cavalry can both scout and screen in the same turn, it's fair to assume that some of your cavaly is staying with the army. Also, by keeping your cavalry with your attacking army as well as in the region you want to defend, you are allowing them to add to the adjusted combat values of your side and thus infuence the outcome of the battle, regardless of whether they cause any casualties. This reflects the role they play in the period when battle is imminent or ongoing.

As far as I can tell, all the bases are covered as far as historical cavalry effects, tactics and strategies for this scale.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to tremy)

Post #: 31

RE: the Nanny state - 7/23/2008 9:20:31 PM

madgamer2

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline

your post begs the question what is it you want to do in this game? What is it you see is the focus od a ACW strategic level game? If you think there is to much micro managing don't even LOOK at the other 2 Civil war Strategic games. Play the game and enjoy it for what it is or put nit back on the shelf. Eric said it right. This is not a presidental simulation.

Madgamer

(in reply to tremy)

Post #: 32

RE: the Nanny state - 7/23/2008 9:25:08 PM

madgamer2

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline

"Fluidity of most operations"? We are talking about the Civil waqr here? the American Civil War/ You are entitled to view but that statement to me does not fit the ACW but to each his own.

Madgamer

(in reply to tremy)

Post #: 33

RE: the Nanny state - 7/23/2008 10:32:34 PM

tremy

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline

I will surrender before it gets too nasty.
Erik .I have used my imagination a great deal over 45 years of board and computer gaming.As you cannot understand my comments ,would you appreciate my making some personal comment about your ablities?
Madgamer.
1 I have not asked for less micro-management in any other sphere.
2 I continue to enjoy AGEODs excellent game and forum posts,so I'm afraid your too late to warn me off.
3. You say it is not a Presidential simulation,please note p11 manual.
"a strategic simulation,......... you take the role of President,cabinet and senior military leaders"
4. Yes fluid,as in water ,moving along the lines of least resistance.
5.Why should I not hope to improve a good simulation,after all with my years of gaming and over 3oo books on the Civil War,I just might have a valid comment and hopefully the time and courage to voice it.

(in reply to madgamer2)

Post #: 34

RE: the Nanny state - 7/23/2008 10:51:36 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Tremy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: tremy
I will surrender before it gets too nasty.
Erik .I have used my imagination a great deal over 45 years of board and computer gaming.As you cannot understand my comments ,would you appreciate my making some personal comment about your ablities?

That was in no way intended as a personal attack. I'm sorry if it came across that way, the internet is great at removing all tone and meaning from a post and allowing it to be interpreted differently from how it was meant. I assure you that I was not trying to come down on you, I was just pointing out that you have to think about what all the game rules represent in terms of actual activities. I still think that the game actually matches the realistic operations and I figured by discussing with you I could either figure out in what way it was not meeting your expectations or explain to you something you might be missing about how it worked.

quote:

3. You say it is not a Presidential simulation,please note p11 manual.
"a strategic simulation,......... you take the role of President,cabinet and senior military leaders"

Right, but since you're also playing the role of the senior military leaders, these decisions really do make sense. I guess my question to you is how would you really automate this without creating more problems for players? Right now I see it as a flexible system that gives players the choice on any given turn of what to focus their cavalry on. Leaving that to an automated system risks getting into situations where you lose an entire battle because the "AI" used your cavalry to raid when you wanted to scout, or scouted the region you weren't planning to attack, etc.

quote:

5.Why should I not hope to improve a good simulation,after all with my years of gaming and over 3oo books on the Civil War,I just might have a valid comment and hopefully the time and courage to voice it.

Well, I totally agree wiith this and I'm sorry if you feel that I was discouraging you. I don't understand some of your points from the context of the game not reflecting reality, but I am happy to discuss and always happy to consider proposals to improve any of our games.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to tremy)

Post #: 35

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 1:06:19 AM

heroldje

Posts: 95
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

i dont think for a second the battle would have been fought where it was had stuarts cavalry been in place

does that mean the invasion would have been a success? no. i'm not apologizing for Lee, he lost the battle, pickets charge was a huge mistake, but the battle wouldn't have been fought there in the first place had it not been for lack of intelligence. Meade was going to fight on the pipe creek line and changed his mind at the very last moment. He ordered his army to concentrate on Gettysburg like 2 hours after ordering them to assemble on the pipe creek line, and only because of the personal appeal and situation already existing in Gettysburg. Absolutely nothing about fighting there was predetermined as you suggest.

thats all i have for the subject, for one reason or another, its my experience its almost never worth the trouble debating on the internet

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 36

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 2:12:23 AM

tremy

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline

Good advice,heroldje.Thats why I post infrequently on forums.
Trouble is,with a really good game,I sometimes lose the abilty to stay out.
Erik. thankyou for your apology,it must be frustrating for you being involved with a game ,to read critical post,perhaps showing a lack of understanding.
I enjoy the game.
I like the ability to raid and scout for information on enemy forces when considering an attack.Also the abilty to screen from enemy observation.
My query relates only to my defence of a region.
I would have pickets out and vedettes ( cavalry in advance of the picket line)
With a reasonable amount of cavalry,the possibility of surprise attack would be very limited.
But reading the aar's and other posts,it is suggested that you will lose ,unless you send your cavalry to another region for information to negate the enemy surprise bonus.
That feels odd to me,as I thought generals tried to keep their cavalry within an hour or two when expecting attack and therefore suggested that it could be computed based on both sides cavalry forces at the point of contact.
Several posts had commented on the amount of time spent purely on moving scouts and I guessed it might be worth looking at some solutions
If this is not the case can I modify the surprise bonus?
My thanks for your time

(in reply to heroldje)

Post #: 37

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 6:21:27 AM

madgamer2

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline

45 yrs.?....huummm....must be at least as old as I am LOL. I find your point of view refreshing and I admire one who knows his mind and how to express his thoughts. There are to many times in my past where I did not really know exactly how I feel about a given game. For the life of me I can't figure out why I play these things as I tend to be a fence sitter and totally NON logical.
I hope nothing I said was taken as a personal negative comment...I have a problem with writing and the English language in general. I know what you mean by being a presidential "I AM THE HEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT" kind of game.
One day when computer coding is much better it will be possible to play the way you desire. The only game series that came close to that sort of play was the talonsoft series where you could play say a Corp comander that is part of an army.
Years ago I did some miniature gaming being a part of the whole was a fun part of the game. We had a club when I was in college and we would set up a battle with chain of command and all that. We were dong a WWI fighter game and my "wing Man" turned chicken and started to run away but I shot him down myself before I got it. SO even though I will not be around when they develop computers to use artificial intelligence and learn how you play It would be fun indeed.
As far as fluid movement and such terms it is really just expressing yourself about a part of a game that I would call something else...or some such thing. I believe that every person who posts here helps the game and the forum get better except for a very few weird types which you are NOT one.
As for AACW my problem is with the way the game looks. I can't play longer than a few hours at a time as I get headaches LOL! The game suffers from a poorly designed interface but does present some new design themes. I have had a lot of problems with the supply rules in the later patchs also. It would be cool to have supply be a feature the player could set. I have a very long list of games I have a problem with because my brain just does not deal with such things very well (SIGH). This is one of the few that I can play and I really like it but will play AACW also.
Keep expressing your thoughts and ideas as we all can learn from each other.

Madgamer

(in reply to tremy)

Post #: 38

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 6:32:29 AM

madgamer2

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline

I had a great disscussion with a 16 yr. old about the Battle of Gettysburg and he was saying that Lee made this mistake and that mistake and such. I pointed out to him that we here in 2008 have one big advantage that he or any commander never had.....hind sight.
There was a moment where Longstreet I believe was wanting to make a flank attack and Lee basically said he was on unknown ground, with no Cavalry, fighting a meeting engagement without knowledge of the enemy. It could be said neither General wanted to fight there but for different reasons.
You are right about debating over the internet. It is not the ideal place.

Madgamer

(in reply to heroldje)

Post #: 39

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 7:13:43 AM

JanSorensen

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tremy

Good advice,heroldje.Thats why I post infrequently on forums.
Trouble is,with a really good game,I sometimes lose the abilty to stay out.
Erik. thankyou for your apology,it must be frustrating for you being involved with a game ,to read critical post,perhaps showing a lack of understanding.
I enjoy the game.
I like the ability to raid and scout for information on enemy forces when considering an attack.Also the abilty to screen from enemy observation.
My query relates only to my defence of a region.
I would have pickets out and vedettes ( cavalry in advance of the picket line)
With a reasonable amount of cavalry,the possibility of surprise attack would be very limited.
But reading the aar's and other posts,it is suggested that you will lose ,unless you send your cavalry to another region for information to negate the enemy surprise bonus.
That feels odd to me,as I thought generals tried to keep their cavalry within an hour or two when expecting attack and therefore suggested that it could be computed based on both sides cavalry forces at the point of contact.
Several posts had commented on the amount of time spent purely on moving scouts and I guessed it might be worth looking at some solutions
If this is not the case can I modify the surprise bonus?
My thanks for your time

To put it into context. I take me maybe 5 minutes (literally) each turn to scout and raid with my cavalry so its certainly not something thats extraordinarily timeconsuming and its a most informative part of your turn where you decided, based on scoutings, where to send reinforcements, so I certainly would hate to miss out on that part.

You have a point that it could have been modeled as passive defensive scouting against enemy movement - but it was modelled as active scouting. The advantage of that are that it makes the player actively decide if his cav is scouting OR raiding. So, yes, indeed, your method could have worked as well.

To my knowledge the surprise combat bonus is not modable.

(in reply to tremy)

Post #: 40

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 8:05:21 AM

beevor_fan

Posts: 21
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline

Just getting a question in here - is it correct that an army moving through a scouted region on the way to a battle will have some of its units become spotted? Or is it impossible to spot an army moving to battle from "one region beyond the front"?

(in reply to JanSorensen)

Post #: 41

RE: the Nanny state - 7/24/2008 8:10:43 AM

JanSorensen

Posts: 3684
Joined: 5/2/2005
From: Aalborg, Denmark
Status: offline

It is correct. The SLP (scouted level percentage) is applies to spotting such units.

(in reply to beevor_fan)

Post #: 42