Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yeah, Bobo.  Now you guys got me interested in Jutland.  I guess I can fire up WPO if no turn is in my inbox tonight.

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ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

It's been a while since I read Mahan but I think he gave due weight to the effects geography had on the fleets-in-being concept. In other words, it would work better for France than it would for Germany. France doesn't have its bottle corked by GB, Germany does.

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

bombardments don't do much in the end but annoy. Its always easier of course to employ the smaller more expendible units in limited ops but they also end up doing little most of the time. They should have sought an engagement of some kind but of course that great bugaboo of BB's got in the way.....Capital ships built to win battles and turn tides of war, but in the end too valuable to risk. Had Souchon linked up, that might have opened some poss', but he had little faith that the AH navy would do anything of worth (and he was right). Another option would be to try to link up with the Turks in the Dardenelles but that was politically unfeasible....that would have left the AH coastline "open" though i'm not sure what the Italians would have done, they had their hands full as it was and amphibious ops were still in their infancy.

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ORIGINAL: JWE

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ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

It's been a while since I read Mahan but I think he gave due weight to the effects geography had on the fleets-in-being concept. In other words, it would work better for France than it would for Germany. France doesn't have its bottle corked by GB, Germany does.

Yeah, and that’s what has me scratching my head over the ‘fleet in being’ thing. To work, the ‘fleet in being’ has to ‘be’ somewhere. Fleets have to ‘do’ something or represent a credible threat to some national interest. They can’t just exist; fact without function does not write large in the pages of glory.

Been following Nik’s Austrian thoughts; very interesting. Don’t think I’ve seen anyone really applying this stuff to the Adriatic before. Woof!

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ORIGINAL: bobogoboom


but from the reading i've done the french only had one or dreads in the med. if the austrians would of attacked the british as they chased the german bcs or if the austirans and germans had gone after the french in the early in the war they would of actualy had a chance of causing serious damage to the french and british in the med. that was the part i never understood if the central powers had forced the british to expend some of their naval might to worry about the austrians in the opening months of the war the could have actually made it to where the germans would of had a chance in the north sea to actualy do something.

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i found the war in the med and adriatic to be far more interesting than the war in the north sea.

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ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

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i found the war in the med and adriatic to be far more interesting than the war in the north sea.

That would probably be because things happened. My votes go to the Baltic or Med for WWI naval action. Although I must admit that Coronel and the Falklands were decisive. Even if they were one sided.

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

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ORIGINAL: bobogoboom


but from the reading i've done the french only had one or dreads in the med. if the austrians would of attacked the british as they chased the german bcs or if the austirans and germans had gone after the french in the early in the war they would of actualy had a chance of causing serious damage to the french and british in the med. that was the part i never understood if the central powers had forced the british to expend some of their naval might to worry about the austrians in the opening months of the war the could have actually made it to where the germans would of had a chance in the north sea to actualy do something.

The French were terrified at the prospect of the Goeben getting admidst their all important convoys ferrying troops from NA to France and employed their major assets in fear of such. (While the UK BC squadron attempted to shadow and bottle her up) The Problem the Austrians had with such an idea was the same however....even though at the time Italy was still neutral or on the cusp of declaring neutrality, they still always kept one eye on them since they were a traditional enemy. As such ideas that would take the AH fleet, esp the heavies out of the Adriatic were akin to cutting wrists. It would both leave their coastline "open" + they might lose their precious heavies which would be a political disaster. In the end though, he who risks nothing gains nothing.

The Italians had a similar fear to be fair, only their fear was focused on the French and British bombarding their long exposed coastline. In the end though, even had Italy sided with the CP's, I doubt there would have been much bombarding. As I mentioned, it makes for great press but usually achieves little.

The Germans came up with some clever if straightforward schemes to take on a managable portion of the Grand Fleet....only problem was that the UK was reading their mail but such an occurance almost happened early on prior to Jutland (not Dogger Bank)

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and Fauklands was a great example of a Navy willing to take a chance in order to beat down a threat. There was not a little bit of hemhawing at the thought of dispersing the BC fleet when most eyes were focused on the North Sea and counting noses but those who risk nothing....win nothing in the end.

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The Germans came up with some clever if straightforward schemes to take on a managable portion of the Grand Fleet....only problem was that the UK was reading their mail but such an occurance almost happened early on prior to Jutland (not Dogger Bank)

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ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

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and Fauklands was a great example of a Navy willing to take a chance in order to beat down a threat. There was not a little bit of hemhawing at the thought of dispersing the BC fleet when most eyes were focused on the North Sea and counting noses but those who risk nothing....win nothing in the end.

I agree, Jellicoe must be the most weak kneed Admiral in recent memory. His fears created menaces everywhere and cost English sailors their lives at Coronel and the Dardanelles. By not wanting any modern ships dispatched from his fleet he essentially "risked nothing".

P.S. I sympathize with your loss and can add no comfort other than to urge you to remember the good times.

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yeah but the alternative was beatty who would have gotten his whole fleet sunk out from under him becuase he didn't understand the limits of his ships and the strength of the germans. I feel jellicoe is crucified for being overly caucious when all his job was was to bottle the germans up and not let them get an advantage in sea powere which he did very effectivly. the dardanells campain would not have been won with more battleships they would have just gotten themselves sunk. it needed more lagistics and a hell of a lot more men. it was a badly convieved and even worsly executed affair that should be completely blamed on churchill and his complete lack of respect for the turks and their soldier

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ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

P.S. I sympathize with your loss and can add no comfort other than to urge you to remember the good times.

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

well these are the same guys who insisted that Enigma was safe......SAFE i tell you.

IIRC, they did attempt to place a Uboat picket near Scapa to warn and attack the GF should it emerge.

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Yikes I recognize that I am now outnumbered 3 to 1.

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ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Imagine if at Coronel even a single Dreadnought had been present? Under that ships umbrella von Speer would have had to either run or engage. An engagement would have been to the Germans disadvantage. To flee would have strained his fleets ability to remain a viable threat do to fuel limits.

Still I confess Jellicoe's job is not one that I would have wanted .

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

And the Italians unleashed 12 offensives of the Isonzo. A messy bloody affair it was. The AH army did better here mostly on defense. Their offensives against Serbia and Russia under Conrad were disasterous and the Germans quickly realized they would have to prop their "Ally" up to keep them in the war.

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ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Yikes I recognize that I am now outnumbered 3 to 1. Therefore I will not carry the day. Perhaps I am gullible and just reflect the criticism of Jellicoe, but I do believe his leadership lacked spirit. Imagine if at Coronel even a single Dreadnought had been present? Under that ships umbrella von Speer would have had to either run or engage. An engagement would have been to the Germans disadvantage. To flee would have strained his fleets ability to remain a viable threat do to fuel limits.

Still I confess Jellicoe's job is not one that I would have wanted .