Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: mdiehl


Your position is a bit like demanding proof of the absence of god.

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You guys are the ones asserting that the Japanese had a real capability to launch CV based airstrikes at night.

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So far you have been unable to come up with an example of a successful one.

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You guys are the ones who have asserted that night time navigation by CV based piliots without loran is simple and reliable enough to make it an effective strategy in a consim, yet you have not provided a single example of the IJN successfully implementing a night attack on any target at any time.

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The Royal Navy could try it in 1942, because CV based swordfish and other torpedo a.c. were often equipped with radar. While that's not so great for navigation, it means that in the dark of night or low-cloud cover you could pick out a target with a small chance of success. Not as good as visual aiming in daylight but definitely better than visual aiming by iteself at night.

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In 1942, the only USN a.c. capable of executing any kind of night attack with reasonable chances of success were land-based PBYs.

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It's germane. The point is that if operational losses at night are correctly modeled, and if operational successes are correctly modeled, players would emulate the historical IJNs aversion to launching night attacks.

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You seem very confused about what happened at Pearl Harbor.

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It appears to be your contention that every time someone playing UV might wish to launch a night strike it should be allowed on the presumption that every target MUST have a 100 KW radio station blaring out American Bandstand conveniently usable by the enemy for navigation. Either admit that is what you are claiming or admit that the Pearl Harbor example is (as most of us know) irrelevent to this discussion.

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The evidence is that the IJN never launched a successful CV-based night raid throughout the entire war. If you believe otherwise, where is your evidence?

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ORIGINAL: borner

So there itis? Sorry my friend, I still dis-agree. Yes, the US attempted night ops, and had some success with these in a strike at Truk. However, most of these planes flew from US Enterprise, with radar equiped Avengers, after Enterprise had been withdrawn for months of practice. Can anyone show me an example where a night strike hit one target at sea, let alone against a whole TF.

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ORIGINAL: HansBolter

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ie...washing machine charlie.

Presumption. No evidence.

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He also admitted they didn't really put much effort into considering the manner in which an open ended, uncontrolled implmentation could be expolited by a mercenary individual with no common sense and a lack of concern for historical accuracy. Read between the lines. He is saying in so many words, " we know we goofed on this but it's too late to fix it".

What planet do you live on Hansbolter? This would be laughed out of court, if it ever ever got there. Total conjecture. Even slanderous!

(in reply to HansBolter)

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ORIGINAL: tocaff

UV is a game and as such historical can be bent in the what if of gaming.

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Night CV ops should be allowed in UV, while at the same time ops loses should be high while accuracy of the attacks should be low.

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ORIGINAL: HansBolter


What's this??? An admission that they "goofed" and since it's too late to fix it in UV they are looking to CF to fix it????

So much for the lines I was reading between not even being there!

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ORIGINAL: ILCK

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ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Ten pages and still no one has posted a shred of evidence that the IJN carried out a successful night carrier operation. Not that there was any doubt in the first place.

For people in a historical game you'd think this would be possible.

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ORIGINAL: DEB

As stated before - information from Japanese sources is rare, as they do not like to deal with WW2. Therefore a lack of evidence proves nothing.

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

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Ike, fer chrissake, can't you just let it go? I mean, the horse has been shot, thumped, beaten, ground, breaded, fried, fricasseed, whipped, honked, tailored, whacked, beaten some more, pureed, shredded, pounded, mortar-and-pestled, nuked, decontaminated, disembowelled, shellacked, torpedoed, and beaten some more.

Agreed, but IKE99 is not the only one still here plugging their point of view ( & it's more than me too). Like you, every one wants the last word so they can claim victory. By the way is this your second "comeback" or third?

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I don't see a single person here disputing your contention that night carrier air operations were possible, and sometimes attempted, in the Pacific theater in WWII.

Disagreed. Several have said they were not possible & all their subsequent comments still support that view, and indeed carry it into general night time ops.

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What they are saying, impliedly if not directly, is that such operations were not anyone's preferred mode of launching airstrikes from their carriers, and the primary reason was that severe operations losses were feared in exchange for lack of effective results. UV allows night carrier air operations almost off-handedly, and however they are represented by that game, Matrix has given you an exact pronouncement of what the prospects for change are: none.

Thats not how I read the comments made.

However, I agree that Night Air OPS from Carriers are neither sides "cup of tea". As to the in game effects I do not know, except that I hope they are reasonably allowed for. Some feel thats not the case, but as it applies to both sides I couldn't care less as long as it's not as effective as day- time raids.

(in reply to pasternakski)

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ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Thread`s dead baby 

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ORIGINAL: ILCK

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ORIGINAL: DEB

As stated before - information from Japanese sources is rare, as they do not like to deal with WW2. Therefore a lack of evidence proves nothing.

OK....so if the Japs who did the bombing don't have sources maybe, oh, I don't know, let's see.....the people that they bombed might have some records. They might have a raftload of records. Odd how neither the bombers nor the bombees mention this.

Please, if it had happened it'd be mentioned by someone somewhere in the vomitous mass of info we have on WWII.

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ORIGINAL: DEB

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ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Thread`s dead baby 

You haven't been around here long, so you know nothing about how these people think/act.

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ORIGINAL: DEB

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ORIGINAL: ILCK

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ORIGINAL: DEB

As stated before - information from Japanese sources is rare, as they do not like to deal with WW2. Therefore a lack of evidence proves nothing.

OK....so if the Japs who did the bombing don't have sources maybe, oh, I don't know, let's see.....the people that they bombed might have some records. They might have a raftload of records. Odd how neither the bombers nor the bombees mention this.

Please, if it had happened it'd be mentioned by someone somewhere in the vomitous mass of info we have on WWII.

That's as maybe, but finding it is something else.
Not all things the Japs did are / were reported by the Allies. Most wartime reporting covers particular battles & large scale actions. General night OPs are not of this Ilk. There were thousands of night ops in Europe, but not that many are generally known about. The Blitz years in England centre around London & Coventry but alot of towns got bombed. Info is not as readily available as you seem to think and searching 100's or 1,000's of web sight entries to get a correct hit is just not reasonable.

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ORIGINAL: Kingfisher
Rest assured that had the Japanese achieved the level of success in carrier night ops as described in this thread it wouldn't have been buried in page six of the daily intelligence briefings.

Two things would have immediately resulted from this: a) repeat performances, perhaps even a definitive change in carrier tactics on the part of the Japanese, and b) the inevitable reaction on the part of the allies (i.e. Direct copy of tactics, more investment in night fighter training & squadrons).

It should be noted that neither case happened.

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

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ORIGINAL: DEB

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ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Thread`s dead baby 

You haven't been around here long, so you know nothing about how these people think/act.

Yeah. They tend to go on and on and on like the Energizer bunny long after the toy is broken and no longer works no matter how much juice you pour into it.

Besides, Abe, don't be such a moron. Obviously, those of us among the Anointed have been graced with knowledge far beyond your poor ability to comprehend.

Now, take this pasternakski guy, for example. If he was a dipstick, you would never know if you had any oil in your crankcase. If he was a lightning rod, your temple would have been reduced to smoldering rubble long ago. If he was a messiah, he would have been late for his own resurrection. If he was ...

Oh, sorry. I guess I was going on and on and on, wasn't I?

NEVER MIND.

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ORIGINAL: ILCK

OK....so if the Japs who did the bombing don't have sources maybe, oh, I don't know, let's see.....the people that they bombed might have some records. They might have a raftload of records. Odd how neither the bombers nor the bombees mention this.

Please, if it had happened it'd be mentioned by someone somewhere in the vomitous mass of info we have on WWII.

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ORIGINAL: Ike99

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ORIGINAL: ILCK

OK....so if the Japs who did the bombing don't have sources maybe, oh, I don't know, let's see.....the people that they bombed might have some records. They might have a raftload of records. Odd how neither the bombers nor the bombees mention this.

Please, if it had happened it'd be mentioned by someone somewhere in the vomitous mass of info we have on WWII.

In this theatre such records would be extremely hard to find if they exist at all and I doubt they exist. Going out to count the bomb holes the next morning on a airfield and documenting them after a Japanese night bombing raid would be extremely low on the list of priorities. I don´t think anyone would be too concerned with that while trying to just stay alive or, minimum, keeping the ability to copulate.

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ORIGINAL: Kingfisher



Rest assured that had the Japanese achieved the level of success in carrier night ops as described in this thread it wouldn't have been buried in page six of the daily intelligence briefings.

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ORIGINAL: ILCK


Yep the IJN ran a successful night op and they never did it again and the USN never made any mention anywhere of it and no historian has found any evidence of such a raid from interviewing veterans on both sides or from the documents. That's likely to have happened.

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ORIGINAL: Kingfisher


You are thinking too far down the chain of command. Both sides devoted considerable resources to evaluating the opposition's tactics and equipment, but these intelligence types were a couple of rungs further up the ladder than the average airbase support grunt.

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ORIGINAL: DEB
You don't really read this thread do you? No-one has "claimed" a level of success in Night carrier OPS!

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Some people here think that no-one took off or landed ( at night ) on a carrier before 1944.

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ORIGINAL: DEB
varius people

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ORIGINAL: DEB

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ORIGINAL: Kingfisher


You are thinking too far down the chain of command. Both sides devoted considerable resources to evaluating the opposition's tactics and equipment, but these intelligence types were a couple of rungs further up the ladder than the average airbase support grunt.

Even more reason why it's unlikely. All info has to come from the bottom up unless it is personally gathered.

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ORIGINAL: DEB
All info has to come from the bottom up unless it is personally gathered.

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ORIGINAL: DEB
Navigation by the Planets & the Stars

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ORIGINAL: DEB
use your charts & speed.