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A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/1/2008 10:02:59 PM   
HansBolter


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I would like to provide some constructive criticism in the form of a critique. I realize most people don’t take criticism well and will endeavor to avoid being as caustic as I have a tendency to be on occasion.

First a little background, so you will hopefully take my critique seriously. I have been an avid wargamer for over 35 years, cutting my teeth in the early 1970s. My boardgame collection alone, numbers somewhere just over 200 titles. You will find my name (the real one, accessible in my profile) in the design credits of your old dusty copy of Advanced Third Reich listed as a playtester. I am currently a beta tester for Panther Games (a Matrix affiliate) engaged in testing the upcoming release of Battles from the Bulge. I state this not to impress but only to hopefully lend some credence to my observations.

The single biggest flaw I see in this game is the choice of the physical/temporal scale ratio, which I see as the real reason for your introduction of the Areas of Operation. When the temporal scale is too great in relation to the physical scale units have the capability to move almost the entire length and breadth of the map in a single turn. I see units in the game with sufficient Operation Points to be able to move halfway or more across the entire board in one turn with the average cost of movement through a clear terrain hex being two movement points. I have seen this phenomenon in games before. The one that comes to mind first is an old GDW board game titled Road to the Rhine. Units in that game could move across the entire breadth of France in a single game turn. This has a strong tendency to throw the game into a tizzy. Players will find it almost impossible to make plans when their enemy can completely redeploy everything on the board all the way across the board each and every turn. The real reason for your introduction of AOs seems to me to have been to reign in the undesirable side effects of what appears to have been a poor choice for the scale ratio. Your professed reason, reigning in historical hindsight, is really just a smokescreen, isn’t it, albeit a very good one?

For the physical scale chosen, I believe a much better choice for temporal scale would have been four six hour turns per day, or at a minimum three eight hour turns per day, which would better facilitate the division between night and day turns. Three eight hour turns per day could be easily divided into two day turns and one night turn. This would have changed your 16 turn game into a 48 turn game. Doing this would have also helped to make the game more appealing to potential customers like Judge Dread who would likely have had less concerns about a potential lack of content. The operations points available to units for three eight hour turns per day would have almost completely obviated the need for the introduction of the AOs. Of course, the introduction of night turns would have greatly increased your workload as mechanics would have had to be implemented for night movement, night combat and fatigue as a result of being active at night.

On to the manual. I found the manual to be frustrating almost to the extreme. The manual is full of rules and references that have absolutely nothing to do with this game (meaning this scenario). Even section 1.0 makes no mention of, or distinction between, the game engine and the game. Many of the rules for the game engine have no relevance to this game. I found myself constantly being frustrated with being inundated with info I don’t need to play this game and generic references to the way scenario designers can set things. What’s important to me in learning how to play this game is what the scenario designer of this game did set them to, not what potential designers of potential future scenarios can set them to. Someday when some one does indeed design a scenario including naval units and amphibious invasions, then, and only then, will I need to be concerned with learning about how they work. This game is in the middle of the steppes of Russia, don’t distract me with details about naval bombardment and amphibious invasions.

What I suggest would have been an improvement would have been to provide separate manual sections for the elements of the game engine included in, and pertinent to, this game, while including a section at the back of the manual outlining all the potential game mechanics that may appear in future scenarios and that those inclined to engage in scenario design can take advantage of. Another negative side effect of the repeated mentions of things not included in this game is that it serves to reinforce the perception that the single scenario represents limited content.

Sections of the manual appear to be poorly written. For example, section 16.1 endeavors to explain that for multi-unit formations one unit is designated as the Minor headquarters. It goes on to attempt to explain that the Minor HQ should not be confused with Formation HQs. Well, of course this clarification was needed because you refer to both the divisional multi-unit formation with the Minor HQ with the same undifferentiated terminology as the Corps level Formation. You call them both simply formations with no distinction. You cause the confusion by failing to differentiate clearly and concisely between the minor and major formation. The second best example is section 24.1. No where in this section does it clearly and concisely state that more than one unit can engage in close combat at a given time. Not until section 24.4 does it even begin to hint that multiple units can participate by referring to the addition of combat shifts for attacks coming from multiple hexes. I realize you may not think this important at first, but it relates directly to the new limitations in this game where only one unit at a time can be activated on the tactical map for movement. If only one unit at a time can be active for movement, how exactly does a player commit multiple units from multiple hexes to an attack? In the DB series it could be done either on the tactical map by selecting and activating all the intended units, or by selecting the adjoining hexes in the combat interface and assigning the additional units there. Perhaps I missed it, but I did not see an explanation anywhere of which of these two techniques can or must be used in this game.

In at least two places somewhat arcane cultural idioms are utilized that I believe should have been avoided. In one place in the manual there is a reference to the player being able to do something “straight away”. While I understand that it is intended to mean that the player can take this action “immediately thereafter”, the meaning of the idiom may not be clear to some. Do you know what the term “straight away” normally means to me? It means the part of the race track that is not the curve. The other place I noticed the use of an idiom that I feel should have been avoided and for better reason is in the game itself. On the German first turn the turn starts with a briefing. The briefing refers to “writing down” the enemy. This is a decidedly British/Australian idiom that I feel has no place in a briefing to a German commander on the eastern front. It serves to burst the bubble of immersiveness. When I take on the role of the German commander I want my briefing to be given as if presented by a German staff officer, not a British one. In point of fact, some might not even grasp the meaning. I mentioned it to my boardgame group last night and at least one of the four of us didn’t know the meaning, in spite of the fact that he has been a wargamer for over twenty years (he is not as well read with regards to military history as the other three of us).

A few words to Matrix about the graphic presentation of the manual, please, please, please drop the attempt to be overly artistic with the parchment like paper background with screen tone imagery that only serves to make the text almost illegible in some locations. When you choose to print a manual in black and white instead of color please take into consideration the potential problems regarding the contrast of very dark colors printing as very, very dark grey. Take a look at the game panels illustrated on pages 26, 27, 28, 29, 31 and 80 for examples of how illegible they have become when printed in black and white. In addition, much of the text explanations make reference to the colors of elements within the illustrations that are not printed in color.

I hope you will not take offense at this critique. I have endeavored to present it as constructively as I know how. My aim is not to trash you for what I perceive as shortcomings, but to provide you with the type of feedback I believe you need to stay on top of producing products that will keep you in business. I would hate to see this release of your first scenario in this new game engine fall as flat as Battlefront seems to have. I own and enjoy playing every game in the DB series and Battlefront. I have been a loyal customer and I hope you will give real consideration to the points I have made here rather than getting bent out of shape (yes I used a cultural idiom) and becoming defensive over them.

Sincerely,

Merrill David Wright aka HansBolter
Post #: 1
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/1/2008 10:30:39 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Very, erm, elequently put (as you allude to yourself, not always your way ). I enjoyed the read and it all makes sense.

What I would have liked you to add was the pluses (maybe there were none!)...just as an addition.

But I think my mind was made up about this title anyway. A shame, but I do very much see it as less "bang for buck" compared to other titles I can grab.

Thx for the post.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 2
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/1/2008 10:43:59 PM   
TheHellPatrol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

A shame, but I do very much see it as less "bang for buck" compared to other titles I can grab.

Thx for the post.

Indeed, although one could see it as elite-ism. "Are you rich enough to buy our games?"


_____________________________

A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Henry David Thoreau


(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 3
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/1/2008 11:32:45 PM   
Toby42


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Some of the things that were mentioned may or may not be a correct read on the game. Reviews and opinions are always subjective to the reiewer. The main reason why I'm staying away is $50 for one scenario. I know that there are a "Bunch" of variants, but it's still one scenario. They are re-doing an old scenario (that I purchased once) to sell as an add-on. That's not enough to make me try it. Then I would have $50 plus for two senario's.

Now I'm not a SSG basher. I have all of their games and have enjoyed them for many hours and will continue to enjoy them. But not this time!

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 4
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/2/2008 2:02:38 AM   
Frank.Costanzo

 

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Han's, Interesting critique/review. Since you have taken the time to provide constructive criticism, I thought I would provide a critique of your review. Let me start off by saying your backround in wargaming is impressive. I have been playing SSG games since the first one on the Ardennes came out many years ago.

I have read many computer wargaming reveiws, and I see shortcomings in your critique. On my first reading I assumed you were making a broad based review of the whole game, and not just feedback on a few selective items of the game. I would suggest in the future you make that more clear in the beginning, so someone who is reading this may understand this is not a broad based balanced review.

Your comments on the game scale are interesting. Too me, the scale is not a problem. In my playings so far I have not once had the feeling that units will be running all over the board at will, but since you have brought it up, I will like to see if your observation really has any credibility. I suspect major breakthoughs throwing the game into a "tizzy" would be difficult against a competent human player.

Thanks for your commments and research on the manual. As a player of the game, I am always interested in the details about the gameplay, and rules. Honestly, I have found most computer game manuals lacking in some way, but in my opinion SSG puts out such a superior game product that I usually overlook what I view a manual shortcomings. Good for you in giving some feedback. I am always happy to see improvements to the manual. In the end, I am sure SSG appriciates your feedback.

I have read your posts on other games in the past, and I know you are the type of person who thinks though carefully what you post. My point is that you have a attention to detail that most of us gamers do not possess. That said, I think you made some interesting points, but to be fair to the game, I would like to here a more balanced overall critique that also covers the many excellent features of the game, such as graphics, one of the best AI's in the industry, new features, etc...

(in reply to Toby42)
Post #: 5
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/2/2008 7:01:12 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter



The single biggest flaw I see in this game is the choice of the physical/temporal scale ratio, which I see as the real reason for your introduction of the Areas of Operation. When the temporal scale is too great in relation to the physical scale units have the capability to move almost the entire length and breadth of the map in a single turn. I see units in the game with sufficient Operation Points to be able to move halfway or more across the entire board in one turn with the average cost of movement through a clear terrain hex being two movement points. I have seen this phenomenon in games before. The one that comes to mind first is an old GDW board game titled Road to the Rhine. Units in that game could move across the entire breadth of France in a single game turn. This has a strong tendency to throw the game into a tizzy. Players will find it almost impossible to make plans when their enemy can completely redeploy everything on the board all the way across the board each and every turn. The real reason for your introduction of AOs seems to me to have been to reign in the undesirable side effects of what appears to have been a poor choice for the scale ratio. Your professed reason, reigning in historical hindsight, is really just a smokescreen, isn’t it, albeit a very good one?

For the physical scale chosen, I believe a much better choice for temporal scale would have been four six hour turns per day, or at a minimum three eight hour turns per day, which would better facilitate the division between night and day turns. Three eight hour turns per day could be easily divided into two day turns and one night turn. This would have changed your 16 turn game into a 48 turn game. Doing this would have also helped to make the game more appealing to potential customers like Judge Dread who would likely have had less concerns about a potential lack of content. The operations points available to units for three eight hour turns per day would have almost completely obviated the need for the introduction of the AOs. Of course, the introduction of night turns would have greatly increased your workload as mechanics would have had to be implemented for night movement, night combat and fatigue as a result of being active at night.



I'm not going to respond here to most your long observations about the manual, except to say that know manual is ever perfect, nor can it ever be written in such a way as to answer all questions for all users. I will consider this feedback carefully when it comes time to rewrite the manual. I'm sorry it didn't work for you, although a combination of the manual and the tutorial seems to have worked for most people.

However, I would like to respond to your remarks about the Areas of Operations, where with the greatest of respect I submit that you have got things totally wrong in your attempt to understand our motives for introducing the concept. Can I just say that, although most questions about our games often come down to a difference of opinion, when it comes to explaining our motives I feel that I'm on pretty safe ground.

Now are certainly right in saying that the question of how far units can move is a serious design question, but it is not one that AOs were implemented to directly address. We already have in place measures to make movement in enemy territory much more difficult than in friendly and to ties units to each other, through formation bonuses and to their HQs through their need to be in command radius to receive supply bullets. So there are already powerful incentives for people to keep units fighting together in cohesive formations, and not spread capriciously around the map.

If you look at the AO for the German Sixth Army, which includes 2 panzer divisions, you'll see that it ranges from Belgorod to Krasnograd, which is a fair way. Clearly, we are not trying to restrict its movement with an AO that large.

In fact, the problem we are trying to solve is of a higher order than restricting individual units. We are trying to model the invisible command, transport, supply and strategic elements that conspire to prevent real life armies from just relocating from point A to point B, even though such a move was in some sense 'possible'.

For instance, the start date for the Russian drive on Kharkov was partly dependent on their completing several extra supply roads to accommodate the huge logistical loads that they had to stockpile in order to launch their offensive. That being the case, should the Russian player be allowed to unilaterally decide to turn his Kharkov offensive into a Belgorod offensive, even though he doesn't have the roads or supplies to support such an effort? And in any case, even if the supplies and roads were to somehow materialise, the Russians lacked the command abilities to quickly make such a major change.

This is the sort of question that the AO system was designed to answer and I think it makes the game both more realistic and more exciting, but here we are back in the realm of opinion and people are quite free to differ on this point.

Gregor




_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 6
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/3/2008 3:49:08 PM   
hank

 

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"...

A few words to Matrix about the graphic presentation of the manual, please, please, please drop the attempt to be overly artistic with the parchment like paper background with screen tone imagery that only serves to make the text almost illegible in some locations. When you choose to print a manual in black and white instead of color please take into consideration the potential problems regarding the contrast of very dark colors printing as very, very dark grey. Take a look at the game panels illustrated on pages 26, 27, 28, 29, 31 and 80 for examples of how illegible they have become when printed in black and white. In addition, much of the text explanations make reference to the colors of elements within the illustrations that are not printed in color.

..."

This comment I agree with. I would like to see the manual printed without the background.  It would sure make it easier tor read.

Regarding the remaining post, I have nearly every hex based IGOUGO game out there and not one of them is head and shoulders above SSG games.  TOAW and HPS are two of the biggest and they both have pro's and con's just like the SSG games.  I play the ones that are the most fun and entertaining.  K:DonD and the HPS games are the two I spend the most time with.  From an eduational standpoint HPS is so accurate its hard to fault their OOBs.  (they keep them updated consistently; they will reseach any errors pointed out and revise the game for download if resolved)  From an entertainment standpoint I spend time with both SSG/K:DonD/BF and the HPS series. 

I enjoyed the read.  I hope its taken as a good natured critique with the aim at continuous improvement. 

Where's my background:  42 years as an amateur military historian and 20 years of computer wargaming



< Message edited by hank -- 8/3/2008 3:50:13 PM >

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 7
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/4/2008 5:59:00 PM   
Ron

 

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Well, reading your critique, your predominant point of contention seems to be the manual content and style and little in regards to the game itself. I'm honestly having a hard time wrapping my head around your theory on the reason for Areas of Operation, the truth in this case being much easier to swallow. In some sense I have felt the same regards how far units can travel in a turn/day, however in practice the game and system play brilliantly and to my mind realistically.


(in reply to hank)
Post #: 8
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/4/2008 7:07:28 PM   
HansBolter


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My post was never intended to be a comprehensive critique on the entire game as I had just acquired it and was deep into reading the manual at the time.

It did indeed focus on the manual as reading it ws my primary activity at the time. I spent a good bit of the weekend with the game and warmed up to it a bit. While I can appreciate that the intnetion of the AOs is to increase and improve upon the modeling of army structure and the limitations that structure places upon line combat units. As pointed out in the response by the designers, some aspects of army structure already come into play in the form where units get thier supplies from such that a decision on the part of a player to fill an urgent need elsewhere with a particular unit can come back to haunt him. The AOs just take those limitations a heavy step further by precluding the offending relocation completely. However, even if it wasn't the intention, the AOs also limit the side effect of straining the physical/temporal scle ratio, which I still belive this game engine does, at least to a small degree. It's not possible to avoid straining that ratio when the physical scale is reduced (from the DB series) and the temporal scale is not (still one day turns). When armor units have 48 OPs and a clear terrain hex costs two OPs to move through the game WOULD have the potential to be uncontrollable (or at least feel like it was out of control) without the AOs.

My main critiques were of and for the manual. It continued to get more frustrating as I got further into it over the weekend. I don't have specifics at the moment, but will organize more specifics if the design team is willing to listen.

On a positive note, I did find the game enjoyable once I got past the manual. The AOs do force the player to pay much more attention to the higher echelons of command.

I do have one question regarding a possible negative side effect of the AOs. What happens when the enemy breaks through near, but not exactly right on a corps boundry such that a small number of units of one corps now find themselves cut off from their parent formation and shoved up against the boundry of the adjacent corps? Will the game ever let them be transferred to the other corps if there is no hope of ever getting them back in contiguous touch with thier parent? Will the adjacent coprs boundry be adjusted to add the sliver of hexes from the original corps' territory to the adjacent corps that is now the only HQ with a supply route to that area of terrain?

The reason I ask is that although I like the effort to add the dimension of army structure, command and supply that comes with the AO limitations I am concerend that it may be too rigid and won't adequately allow for adjustements that become necessary as thhbattle ebbs and flows. Units didn't stay attached to one corps permanantly. Corps boundaries were not set in stone and were modified for more that just regularly scheduled phase line adjustments.

It's allowing for this that I am thinking of:

"17th Corps commander to 6th Army: The Ivans have just broken through on our left flank. The 389th Infanterie Division in in a shambles. Two of it's regiments were pushed to the north by the Ivans and are completely out of touch. These regiments will need to be transferred to the 29th Corps to the north for command and supply purposes The 29th Corps will also need to take over responsibility for the area three kilometers south of the old boundry."

I don't see anything in the manual that hints at this kind of flexibility.


(in reply to Ron)
Post #: 9
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/8/2008 7:47:23 PM   
HansBolter


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4 days and no further responses to my additional questions. The extreme lack of activity on this forum does not bode well........

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 10
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/8/2008 8:36:06 PM   
Carl Myers

 

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quote:

"17th Corps commander to 6th Army: The Ivans have just broken through on our left flank. The 389th Infanterie Division in in a shambles. Two of it's regiments were pushed to the north by the Ivans and are completely out of touch. These regiments will need to be transferred to the 29th Corps to the north for command and supply purposes The 29th Corps will also need to take over responsibility for the area three kilometers south of the old boundry."


Negative, commander, the regiments will be computer forced marched back to a friendly controlled hex in their AO.



(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 11
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/9/2008 8:24:48 AM   
Noakesy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

4 days and no further responses to my additional questions. The extreme lack of activity on this forum does not bode well........


...SSG should reply, but a lot of us players use the forms on SSG too

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 2:51:11 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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Sorry, took the weekend off for birthday, I hope you don't mind. Today is actually the auspicious day itself, but I'm back at the keyboard working away.

As for the question of boundaries, we don't allow the AO boundaries to be shifted. Firstly, it would be hard mechanism to implement. Secondly, there would be now way to stop players from abusing the mechanism to achieve short term tactical goals. The AOs that we have in the game are sufficiently broad that problems should not normally arise. For instance, the German 6th Army has an AO that ranges from Belgorod to Krasnograd. I can't see any circumstances in which it would need to be adjusted. The Russian formations are much more constrained, but this is as it should be. Russian formations that might be disadvantaged by an AO are suffering, exactly as they should, from the rigidity of the Russian command system and the severe consequences that awaited any Russian commander who dared to deviate, no matter how sensibly, from his orders.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to Noakesy)
Post #: 13
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 9:10:41 AM   
JudgeDredd


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I have to say I find your AOs very, very enticing...I like the idea of an overall commander forcing me to limit the use of my troops...but I am still perturbed by the lack of content...sorry.

I'm not using this post to keep on about the "one scenario" thing, I'm using it to let you know that I think you've got a great system here but your still losing out on custom from me because of content/cost.

If the price was dropped I'd pick it up.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 8/11/2008 11:32:47 AM >

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 14
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 1:52:53 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Sorry, took the weekend off for birthday, I hope you don't mind. Today is actually the auspicious day itself, but I'm back at the keyboard working away.

As for the question of boundaries, we don't allow the AO boundaries to be shifted. Firstly, it would be hard mechanism to implement. Secondly, there would be now way to stop players from abusing the mechanism to achieve short term tactical goals. The AOs that we have in the game are sufficiently broad that problems should not normally arise. For instance, the German 6th Army has an AO that ranges from Belgorod to Krasnograd. I can't see any circumstances in which it would need to be adjusted. The Russian formations are much more constrained, but this is as it should be. Russian formations that might be disadvantaged by an AO are suffering, exactly as they should, from the rigidity of the Russian command system and the severe consequences that awaited any Russian commander who dared to deviate, no matter how sensibly, from his orders.

Gregor



Gregor, not allowing the AOs to be shifted to account for the fluidity of operations because the flexibility could be exploited and "gamed" by the player only leaves you with the opposite result....the fixed AOs boundries being exploited and "gamed".

As some one pointed out on the SSG forums, this is exactly what is happening to him. Your answer to him was to use the variable or mystery AOs so his opponent can't know where the boundries are to "game" them.

If variable or mystery AOs are the only way to avoid having the fixed historical AOs being "gamed", then of what real practical use are the historical AOs and why are they even included in the game?



(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 15
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 2:37:36 PM   
iberian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

If variable or mystery AOs are the only way to avoid having the fixed historical AOs being "gamed", then of what real practical use are the historical AOs and why are they even included in the game?



There's an obvious reason. Some of us don't play against human opponents, and are only interested in playing against the AI with as much historical fidelity as possible. Therefore I appreciate the inclusion of historial AOs in a game that is supposed to be a historical recreation of a real battle.

Anyway, I believe that you do not oppose the inclusion of historical AO's and are bringing the point just for the sake of continuing the discussion. I believe Gregor has made a good case of why AO's and Mistery Variants are how they are.

< Message edited by iberian -- 8/11/2008 2:40:56 PM >

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 16
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 2:47:17 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iberian

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

If variable or mystery AOs are the only way to avoid having the fixed historical AOs being "gamed", then of what real practical use are the historical AOs and why are they even included in the game?



There's an obvious reason. Some of us don't play against human opponents, and are only interested in playing against the AI with as much historical fidelity as possible. Therefore I appreciate the inclusion of historial AOs in a game that is supposed to be a historical recreation of a real battle.

Anyway, I believe that you do not oppose the inclusion of historical AO's and are bringing the point just for the sake of continuing the discussion. I believe Gregor has made a good case of why AO's and Mistery Variants are how they are.


You are correct in your assumption that I do not oppose the AO concept. I also do not play against human opponents. What is important to me is to know if the AI exploits it's knowledge of the AO limitations. I am not arguing for the mere sake of argument. I really do like the concept of the AOs. I just want to make sure all considerations have been made and accounted for. Since the answers I get tend to address only one side or aspect of the situation I do feel compelled to point out the other side that is being omitted for whatever reason.

(in reply to iberian)
Post #: 17
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 2:48:33 PM   
JudgeDredd


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At the same time, surely Hans has a point?

If AOs were included for historical reasons, and prevent "gamey" tactics where the player can use whatever is at his disposal, moving them great distances in a short space of time "because the game allows"...if AOs were indeed for those two reasons, then Hans does have a point in that if the AOs are being implemented, then the player will know the AOs and, as such, play his game...thus enjoying gamey tactics...exactly what AOs were designed to prevent.

I don't think you can poo poo Hans discussion. He's not keeping anything going "...for the sake of it". He's brought up some valid points and asking the developer about them. Let it go. If you have something of value to add about the AOs, then great...post away...but don't come to the table empty handed and start a fight.

(in reply to iberian)
Post #: 18
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 2:51:14 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I meant to say that I'm enjoying this discussion so far, because the AOs intrigue me....so I'm more than happy for it to keep on track and continue to a satisfactory conclusion.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 19
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 2:57:41 PM   
iberian


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From: What is left of Spain after the Socialists...
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You are correct in your assumption that I do not oppose the AO concept. I also do not play against human opponents. What is important to me is to know if the AI exploits it's knowledge of the AO limitations. I am not arguing for the mere sake of argument. I really do like the concept of the AOs. I just want to make sure all considerations have been made and accounted for. Since the answers I get tend to address only one side or aspect of the situation I do feel compelled to point out the other side that is being omitted for whatever reason.



SSG has explained many times in the past for their previous games that their AI doesn't cheat exploiting knowledge not availabe to the the human player. I don't think they have changed their politic now.

Also, SSG has a known past of being very carefull to what changes and modifications go in the system, so it's preatty safe to assume that they have taken into account all that is reasonble, and every consideration possible.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 20
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 3:08:54 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iberian

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You are correct in your assumption that I do not oppose the AO concept. I also do not play against human opponents. What is important to me is to know if the AI exploits it's knowledge of the AO limitations. I am not arguing for the mere sake of argument. I really do like the concept of the AOs. I just want to make sure all considerations have been made and accounted for. Since the answers I get tend to address only one side or aspect of the situation I do feel compelled to point out the other side that is being omitted for whatever reason.



SSG has explained many times in the past for their previous games that their AI doesn't cheat exploiting knowledge not availabe to the the human player. I don't think they have changed their politic now.

Also, SSG has a known past of being very carefull to what changes and modifications go in the system, so it's preatty safe to assume that they have taken into account all that is reasonble, and every consideration possible.



Having been a war gamer for over 35 years and participated in wargame design and development I never make those kinds of assumptions. I ask.

While I didn't offer my reason for asking I do have a valid one. I started my second game last weekend. In my first game I attempted to build a new line in front of Kharkov immediately behind the original line, falling back as little as possible. The line was too brittle and teh Russians stormed right through it much the same as in the AAR recently posted on the SSG site and linked here.

In my second game I fell back to the river line that runs east/west near the boundry of the 29th Corps and then turns south to link up to Kharkov. The line there is solid and has completely stymied the AI. However, at the far eastern end of the line where it attaches to and hinges on the original fortified line the AI has completely denuded it's front line for a two hex distance while it appeared to have pushed everything forward. Since units behind teh lines are hidden to me I have no idea if there are reserves covering this frontage, but it has all the appearances of the AI choosing to leave unthreatened hexes empty as the units on my side of the line are prevented by their corps boundry from attacking further southward into the unocuppied front line hexes. While it may have a simple explanation, it has the look of a gamey tactic.

So, before you take some one to task and lecture them on how all encompassing the design and playtesting of a game by a professional game company can be assumed to be you might one to consider that they may have valid reasons for asking the questions they do, but have simply not yet made you aware of them.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 8/11/2008 3:10:15 PM >

(in reply to iberian)
Post #: 21
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 3:28:43 PM   
iberian


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From: What is left of Spain after the Socialists...
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
At the same time, surely Hans has a point?


He had point in his first post. Then the game designer answered him, gave a reasonable explanation , and, under my point of view, he stopped having one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I don't think you can poo poo Hans discussion. He's not keeping anything going "...for the sake of it".


Sorry, but no. Bringing to the table the need of having historical AO is discussing for the sake of it. Mistery Variants are the answer against gamey tactics by human opponents. Historical AOs don't have anything to do with it.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 22
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/11/2008 3:36:21 PM   
iberian


Posts: 63
Joined: 1/28/2005
From: What is left of Spain after the Socialists...
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
So, before you take some one to task and lecture them on how all encompassing the design and playtesting of a game by a professional game company can be assumed to be you might one to consider that they may have valid reasons for asking the questions they do, but have simply not yet made you aware of them.


Oh, I'm sure you have valid reasons. No doubt about it.

The problem is that AI cheating doesn't have anything to do with AO design and its purpose in the game mechanics. It's totally another issue that can only be addressed by the game designers.

Still, the AI can be designed to cheat no matter if the AO concept is present or not. But programming an AI to use AO's information, in case the user has it turned on, and programming it also not to use it, in case the user has it turned off, looks too much trouble to be a reasonable possibility.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 23
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/12/2008 1:35:07 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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No system is perfect and all systems struggle to cope with ingenuity of gamers. The combination of Historical and Mystery Variant AOs is our way doing so, and I think it works very well.

The AOs are designed to simulate a whole range of factors that had a great impact on the battle. These are factors that we hadn't seriously addressed in our previous games.

Firstly though, can I just say that in the 'Whatsnew.PDF' doc that is installed in the Kharkov game directory, I state that the AI will always use the AOs. So it will always face the same restrictions as the human player using the AOs.

One of the issues that the AOs try to address is the problem of hindsight and perfect knowledge. We as gamers already know what happened in the historical battle, or if we don't its only a mouse click away on Wikipedia. Not only that, but we can boot up the game and play each side, thus knowing the exact OB and deployments of each side, down to the last samovar.

The AOs can't prevent such knowledge but they do restrict your ability to exploit it, putting you much closer to the position of the historical generals. The mystery variants strongly discourage trying to take advantage of any knowledge of the historical AOs, as you just don't know what advantage (and the variants always confer an advantage) the other side has, and therefore have to be much more sensible in your deployments.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to iberian)
Post #: 24
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/12/2008 1:38:31 PM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
What is important to me is to know if the AI exploits it's knowledge of the AO limitations.


You know that the enemy regiment "X" cannot move into the adjacent AO and therefore cannot attack you're left flank - and you can exploit this. Swap sides and the AI doesn't know this and will presume it's left flank is vulnerable.

-

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 25
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/12/2008 6:41:51 PM   
jmlima

 

Posts: 782
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
What is important to me is to know if the AI exploits it's knowledge of the AO limitations.


You know that the enemy regiment "X" cannot move into the adjacent AO and therefore cannot attack you're left flank - and you can exploit this. Swap sides and the AI doesn't know this and will presume it's left flank is vulnerable.

-



That's intriguing. To say the least. How is it possible that the AI does not factor that onto the calculations, if it is working within the same limitations?

That is, the AI knows it cannot move it's own regiment X onto a different AO, but does not factor that the opponent (human) regiment Y also cannot move? Certainly if it is something to increase realism, the AI should operate within the same constraints and knowldge as a human player, it should not have more knowledge (cheating) , but it certainly should not have less knowledge or compute less facts.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 26
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/13/2008 12:41:23 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
What is important to me is to know if the AI exploits it's knowledge of the AO limitations.


You know that the enemy regiment "X" cannot move into the adjacent AO and therefore cannot attack you're left flank - and you can exploit this. Swap sides and the AI doesn't know this and will presume it's left flank is vulnerable.

-



That's intriguing. To say the least. How is it possible that the AI does not factor that onto the calculations, if it is working within the same limitations?

That is, the AI knows it cannot move it's own regiment X onto a different AO, but does not factor that the opponent (human) regiment Y also cannot move? Certainly if it is something to increase realism, the AI should operate within the same constraints and knowldge as a human player, it should not have more knowledge (cheating) , but it certainly should not have less knowledge or compute less facts.



Its encouraging to see people treating the AI as if it has knowledge about the game in the same way that a human player does, as this means that its doing a reasonable job. In truth, like the Wizard of Oz, it's all done by smoke and mirrors. The AI doesn't 'know' anything about your forces, and certainly doesn't know that it has a left flank - that's a very human concept and the AI is nowhere near smart enough to deal with such a fluid concept.

What the AI has is a bunch of rules and hints/commands from the scenario designer and each formation applies those rules without ever trying to consider the bigger picture. The bigger picture is supplied mostly by the change of ownership of geographical objectives. For example, the Russian 6th Army and AG Bobkin will continue their offensive towards Krasnogrd and Kharkov until Izyum falls, whereupon they get a new plan.

The big advantage for the AI with the new AO system is that the area that it operates in and the forces that it has to operate with are precisely known. This makes it much easier for the scenario designer to give precise instructions.

In the example above, the question of whether the AI worries about its left flank is primarily answered by the scenario designer. If he wants the flank guarded he can specify some defensive hexes that the AI will try to protect. However, even if he doesn't do that, the AI does have underlying routines that will cause it to seek out enemy units and attack if possible so AI units could end up on the left flank anyway. It's hard to be more precise because the scenario designer is mostly giving high level commands/suggestions and the underlying routines that are finally in charge of moving and attacking are necessarily autonomous.

So to summarise, the AI never sees the whole game like a human player does. The only possible advantage that the AI could have is its ability to calculate all possible combats and attack at the most advantageous odds. This is removed by the fact that we give the human player access to the same ability through the Combat Advisor and that the only basis the AI has for choosing between competing high odds combats is the higher level hints from the scenario designer, which never be as acute or relevant as those generated by a human player able to look at all levels of the game in a single glance.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 27
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/13/2008 12:55:33 AM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima

How is it possible that the AI does not factor that onto the calculations, if it is working within the same limitations?

the AI should operate within the same constraints and knowldge as a human player,




In this case the AI has less knowledge than the player. What the AI cannot do is is practice by playing from one side or the other and learn how to exploit the limitations of the Areas of Operation. Example: You know the opponent has exactly 10 armoured units. If you can destroy them all you know he has none left. An AI would never know the opponent has none left.
-

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 28
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/13/2008 12:58:54 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

It's hard to be more precise because the scenario designer .......




You could be more precise as currently there is only 1 scenario. Someone pointed out that this style of wording as used in the manual makes the manual a tad weak.
-

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
Post #: 29
RE: A constructive critique from fisrt impressions - 8/13/2008 1:09:45 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Having been a war gamer for over 35 years and participated in wargame design and development I never make those kinds of assumptions. I ask.

While I didn't offer my reason for asking I do have a valid one. I started my second game last weekend. In my first game I attempted to build a new line in front of Kharkov immediately behind the original line, falling back as little as possible. The line was too brittle and teh Russians stormed right through it much the same as in the AAR recently posted on the SSG site and linked here.

In my second game I fell back to the river line that runs east/west near the boundry of the 29th Corps and then turns south to link up to Kharkov. The line there is solid and has completely stymied the AI. However, at the far eastern end of the line where it attaches to and hinges on the original fortified line the AI has completely denuded it's front line for a two hex distance while it appeared to have pushed everything forward. Since units behind teh lines are hidden to me I have no idea if there are reserves covering this frontage, but it has all the appearances of the AI choosing to leave unthreatened hexes empty as the units on my side of the line are prevented by their corps boundry from attacking further southward into the unocuppied front line hexes. While it may have a simple explanation, it has the look of a gamey tactic.

So, before you take some one to task and lecture them on how all encompassing the design and playtesting of a game by a professional game company can be assumed to be you might one to consider that they may have valid reasons for asking the questions they do, but have simply not yet made you aware of them.


If I understand the issue here, the question is what is the AI Russian player doing in the Chuguyev salient in the historical scenario? The answer is that the Russian player is doing pretty much what they did historically. Initially, the 38th Army is tasked with supporting the southern flank of the drive on Kharkov. It includes Chuguyev as a possible objective, but is mostly focused on Kharkov and the hexes south and east of Kharkov. It will attack German strongpoints and units in a direct line between its start line and Kharkov but will ignore the strongpoints on the eastern face of the salient.

This can all change if the Russian has Variant 3. In this variant, the 38th Army makes a serious assault on Chuguyev and the entire salient. The variant is intended to keep the German player honest and prevent him from stripping too many troops out of his salient defences.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 30
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