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A Question about Ammo Trucks! - 4/5/2002 4:06:57 AM

John David

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Hey Guys,

I was wondering how you use those big ammo trucks properly to re-supply the troops in the field.

How close to the unit in need does the truck have to be in order to re-supply them?

When you are in battles where ammo is left on the battlefield, it seems that your units have to get within one hex of the ammo to be able to re-supply. but with the trucks, since there is nothing to off-load, does it work the same way?

I had a number of light mortar units that were out of ammo about half way through the battle, and drove my ammo trucks right up to them and even later, right into the same hex, but they did not get any ammo. Does it take more then a few turns sometimes?

Any advice or tips will be appreciated!

Thanks

John

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Post #: 1

- 4/5/2002 4:12:58 AM

Charles2222

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John David: Here's some quick cheap answers. The ammo truck AND the recipient have to both be stationary for the entire turn in order to get resupplied at the end of that turn or the beginning of the next (not sure when it occurs exactly). I'm pretty sure both units either have to be very lowly suppressed or none at all. Also, the unit has to be adajacent. I think it'll work if the recipient is in the same hex too. The ammo 'dump,' I think, requires you to be in the same hex and adjacent hex doesn't work.

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Post #: 2

- 4/5/2002 4:23:13 AM

Svennemir

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I have a correction here. Sorry if I'm wrong, but

Ammo trucks and depots work in the same way: vehicles must be either in same hex or adjacent. Resupply may go faster in same hex, but be careful around dumps. If they're destroyed, everything in the same hex goes with them.

Supplying by truck can sometimes be very slow in my experience.

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Post #: 3

OK Guys, Thanks! - 4/5/2002 4:33:02 AM

John David

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Thanks guys!

It also seems to be my experience about having to be within one hex for the ammo dump, but I wasn't sure if the same applied to the trucks.

And yes, make sure your ammo truck is in a secure position away from enemy fire, or it could become a very bad day:(

John

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- 4/5/2002 11:57:18 AM

tracer

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]
Supplying by truck can sometimes be very slow in my experience. [/B][/QUOTE]

Trucks resupply at 1/2 the rate of ammo dumps; unit experience can make the transfer faster/slower.

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Post #: 5

- 4/5/2002 12:37:38 PM

Capt. Pixel

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Ammunition caliber will also affect reload time. a 60mm jeep can completely reload (30 rounds) in one turn when adjacent to two ammo trucks (or one ammo dump). Large caliber and rockets can reload as slowly as one shot per turn per truck.

Reloads apparently occur just after your artillery segment. Anything you fire at the end of the opponents turn isn't reloaded.
(0.2 to 0.5 delay)

In addition to being stationary for a turn, ammo supply and weapons must be in good rally order.

If they're not in perfect order, you probably don't have your ammo trucks in the right place anyway. ;)

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Post #: 6

- 4/5/2002 7:51:04 PM

robot

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I place my 75s howitzers around the ammo dump also my 81 mortors. Have not ran out in a 35 turn based long campaign. They are not in same hex as the dump but around the perimeter. I never use ammo trucks any more. Have not had a dump go up as ai does not seem to care about my 75s or 81 mortors. Dont know bout scenerios or pbm have never played them.

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- 4/5/2002 10:13:20 PM

Charles2222

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robot:

quote:

I never use ammo trucks any more. Have not had a dump go up as ai does not seem to care about my 75s or 81 mortors. Dont know bout scenerios or pbm have never played them.

Keep in mind I'm not exactly an artillery afficianado, but I HAVE had my onboard artillery bombarded. I doubt it makes a difference, but every time I can think that the AI reacted against them was when these two factors occurred: a) They were off on their own somewhere well hid and weren't resupplying. b)They were counterbatterying enemy onboard artillery. I've failed to note whether the counter to my counter was necessarily from the same basic gun I was shelling or if others joined in as well.

I have gone through quite a few games where I positioned artillery around resupply units, and I can't recall them ever getting bombarded. I also can't recall treating them differently, in that I might've decided that those units should 'never' counterbattery onboard units, but in any case I have over the course of time definitely seen onboard counterbattery to my onboard counterbattery, but it hasn't ever been effective enough to matter (of course the slightest bombardment could spell the end of a truck).

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Post #: 8

Trucks In MC's - 4/6/2002 2:21:52 AM

John David

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I also prefer having ammo dumps over the trucks, but in campaign play and especially in MC's like the one I'm involved with no (MCNA), the trucks are part of some of the individual battles. they even sometimes come into a battle in a later turn as reinforcements, as some of your units start of with limited ammo (i.e. not starting with as much as they normaly would, not the limited ammo prefrence which is selected).

Thanks to everyone for your input to this thread.

John

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Post #: 9

- 4/6/2002 2:30:19 AM

Taglia

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In a PBEM game I had an ammo depot resupplying 4 BM-13 RL and 3 82mm tubes ... I was able to shell my opponent every turn, and never ran out of ammo (except for the BM-13s that fired all thier rockets in one shelling, then recieved 3 rockets per turn from the ammo dump)

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- 4/6/2002 4:09:12 AM

Belisarius

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I'm offtopic-ing here, but...

...a question just popped up in my head:

What kind of people drove ammo trucks? :D
I mean, it's not like driving potato trucks, right? So if you were on ammo truck detail, did you have some certain kind of mentality, or did one develop it? Driving around in a soft-skinned truck with 3 tons of explosives in the back.... :p

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Post #: 11

- 4/6/2002 5:30:30 AM

V-man

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]

In addition to being stationary for a turn, ammo supply and weapons must be in good rally order.

If they're not in perfect order, you probably don't have your ammo trucks in the right place anyway. ;)

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'd call it less of the ammo truck's owner doing something wrong as teh other guy doing somethign very *right*...

:D

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Post #: 12

- 4/6/2002 8:16:55 AM

Capt. Pixel

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Taglia -

I had a setup similar to yours but it was four adjacent ammo dumps with a platoon of su57s on each.

Everything was going dandy - reloading like bats out of h.. - well, reloading very fast.

And then that one fateful golden BB 150mm came in and ended one ammo dumps existence - and the 4 SU57s sitting on it - ouch.

I don't do THAT anymore.:rolleyes:

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Post #: 13

test - 4/7/2002 10:21:15 PM

tracer

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I posted earlier that units in the same hex with an ammo truck resupply at twice the rate of adjacent units; I noticed in a PBEM turn this AM that this doesn't seem to be the case.
(See picture) All vehicles in this screencap have not moved for several turns. The two SdKfz 251/2's in the hex with the ammo truck at the upper left have a very low number of rounds remaining, even though they also have another ammo truck adjacent to them; their resupply rate is almost equal to the 251/2's at the lower left which [I]only[/I] have one adjacent truck. The four SP-mortars in the central hex (adjacent to all 3 ammo trucks) have had their supply [B]increase[/B], even though they have been firing every turn.

In a separate battle, I had four HU 75mm howitzers: 1 in the hex with the ammo truck and the other 3 in adjacent hexes. The guns in the surrounding hexes drew ammo [I]much[/I] faster.

Of course a true test requires many more examples, but from these preliminary results it appears that units adjacent to ammo trucks load faster than those in the same hex.

[IMG]http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/img/ammo2.gif[/IMG]

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- 4/7/2002 10:47:22 PM

Charles2222

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tracer: That positioning is just asking for a bruising. Artillery and ammo trucks in the objectives? Hmm, I posted this prematurely...

quote:

Of course a true test requires many more examples, but from these preliminary results it appears that units adjacent to ammo trucks load faster than those in the same hex.

I 'think' that theory was disproved months ago. I think you'll find that each truck dispenses to each unit, so that, if a unit borders the ammo trucks on more than one border, their resupply will multiply by the number of bordering or in-hex trucks. I believe in the case of ammo trucks, the resupply rate in-hex or outside of it, is the same.

I think ammo depots are double the rate, but that they do not allow resupply outside the hex.

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Post #: 15

- 4/7/2002 11:18:09 PM

Charles2222

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BTW, this is what I found in the manual, when I looked for the word 'resupply' though I didn't go any further in the search than the first instance.

quote:

Players may receive ammo trucks and dumps in scenarios, or they may purchase them in
campaign game. These units provide ammunition resupply to units that are adjacent and not
overly suppressed. The larger the caliber of the weapon on the unit being supplied, the slower the
rate of resupply.
Ammo dumps are immobile units that can never move or be carried whose primary function is to
resupply units in the hex with it. A unit in the same hex as the ammo dump that neither moves nor
shoots for a turn and is not too suppressed is supplied with twice the amount of ammunition
provided by an ammo truck.
HQ units can provide a morale benefit for all friendly units within five hexes. This automatically
reduces some suppression at the end of a turn for units in range.

Question, it says "HQ units", just what is meant by that, just your general platoon/company command? In any case I was thinking they only benefit the guys within 5 hexes underneath them, not other units too. I'm curious about that part of the quote, because I bought a command post the other day thinking it would do what this claims, and it did nothing of the sort. The company and platoon commands probably benefit their own subordinates within range, but I doubt it benefits ALL units, and even so, why didn't the command post work, as a unit right next door to it wasn't getting any benefit?

Oh excuse me. I reread those last two sentences I show form the manual regarding HQ units. It says "can provide a morale benefit" which I take to mean I should see some boost to a unit's morale rating, but now I don't think that is what is meant. I think the benefit is the second sentence, that it will reduce some suppression at the end of a turn, which of course, if the unit next door had no suppression, it was deriving no benefir at that time, as opposed to seeing higher morale rating when within the radius. Hmm, so just where would 'end of turn' fall in? Would I ever see it? In other words, is there a way to see if it works or not? For example, if a unit with a suppression of 99 is beside it, one way to look at it is that no unit should be capable of getting that 99. But I think it means that at the end of your player turn it will reduce it, which would only benefit you during the enemy turn somewhat. Then when the enemy is through, the enemy could've got it jacked back up to 99 again, and you would think the HQ wasn't doing anything. Any ideas?

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- 4/7/2002 11:35:54 PM

Leto II

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I think that it reduces suppression by a set amount to all units within radius at the end of the turn, like entrenchments do. (Entrenchments reduce supression by 15 i think.) I am not certain if this reduction comes before or after the units autorally.

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- 4/8/2002 12:10:41 AM

Charles2222

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Thanks Leto II.

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Post #: 18

Thanks ! - 4/8/2002 12:38:20 AM

John David

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Charles_22,

Thanks for the in depth explanation. It's the best overall one that I have seen.

Thanks

John

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- 4/8/2002 1:22:26 AM

Capt. Pixel

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Remember also that reloading is not just a function of the number and type of ammo suppliers, but also the experience and quality of those and the units they are resupplying. Suppression also plays a role in the reload rate.

A talented SPM crew can get off a few more shots each round than the standard. And it appears that a highly experienced ammo crew can reload units at a faster rate.

My testing on this subject has revealed:

An ammo truck/dump can reload as many units as you can stuff into the same or adjacent hex - I've never achieved any kind of 'reasonable' limit. (another, similar game used to have a reload limit on the ammo unit). One dump equals two trucks in terms of reload performance.

Ammo is reloaded after YOUR artillery barrage turn - but your ammo will not be reloaded after his barrage turn.

In other words, if you're bringing in you artillery with a 0.3, 0.4 or 0.5 delay, then some of those rounds are falling on HIS artillery turn. They will not be reloaded. If you keep this up over several turns, the ammo units will appear to not be keeping up.

Incidentally, I've found that one ammo dump or two trucks can usually keep up with the firing rate per turn of most artillery units (rockets being the key exception). Even if the ammunition starts depleting, two trucks can usually keep them going well into a 25 to 30 turn game.

So, experience, suppression, and delayed incoming rounds can all serve to adjust the reload rate for various individual units.

I'm sure there are items I missed, but I believe this covers the high points. :cool:

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- 4/8/2002 2:57:17 AM

Charles2222

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Capt. Pixel:

quote:

Ammo is reloaded after YOUR artillery barrage turn - but your ammo will not be reloaded after his barrage turn.

I'm wondering who would think that they'd reload twice? You seem to think that people would think that they would reload twice a turn, whereas I've always thought it was once a turn. Of course, it doesn't really matter, whether it's twice or once, it's the total that counts.

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that if fire patterns are clumped together they will have fired more than once since last time you looked at their ammo, thereby seeming to have fallen behind in resupply, but of course if you were accurately keeping up with the fire rate it would be no surprise, which of course if you had only one gun that would be a simple proposition.

John David: If you're talking about the quote, it ought to be, as that was the manual, however, the attempted explanation was mine. I say attempted because I'm not even sure I'm right, so am I curious if anyone knows that to be coorect. It's bound to be flawed to some extent.

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The Explanation! - 4/8/2002 5:09:36 AM

John David

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Charles_22,

Yes I meant the explanation. I found it in the manual after, but I appreciated your spin on it.

I wouldn't worry about your version of it. It seems logical to me.
I'm sure others will post their opinions based on their experience.

Thanks

John

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Post #: 22

- 4/8/2002 6:15:06 AM

tracer

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles_22
[B]tracer: That positioning is just asking for a bruising. Artillery and ammo trucks in the objectives? Hmm, I posted this prematurely...

[/B][/QUOTE]

This is from a late-game turn; opponent hit the area much earlier, but hadn't since...and the 'congregation' formed slowly. Also should point out that I cleared the smoke before grabbing the picture; the entire area (and several others behind the battle line) are covered with smoke-hexes...very low risk of him picking this one. Not sure what you meant by 'objectives': the nearest VH's are 10-15 hexes away. And yes, there are some opponents I would never try this with ;)
(hope this one doesn't recognize the map!).

In the other battle I mentioned, I also had 100mm howitzers in the same hex as an ammo [I]dump[/I], and 81mm mortars adjacent to it...both were resupplied like clockwork.

I always believed the rate for same and adjacent hex was the same too, but lately I'm seeing a different picture.

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- 4/8/2002 6:16:57 AM

tracer

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Meant to write: 'same for ammo [I]trucks[/I]' at the end.

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Post #: 24

- 4/8/2002 7:41:11 AM

Charles2222

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tracer: Ohhhh, those flags are identification markers. I thought they were VHs (misspoke when I said objectives), as I never use those unit flags. It really looked stupid, as though you were trying to make the picture-perfect disposition as to what not to do, and even cleared it looks like a unit didn't make it, alongside other hexes having been hit, and many of the units are in clear hexes, assuming that were there from deployment until that turn; it looked really bad. It looked as though your avatar was an indication of self-infliction.

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- 4/8/2002 9:16:01 AM

tracer

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Yeah, one did get hit earlier,lucky shot; my opponent dropped a fire mission there to prep the way for some airborne.

Speaking of that, he dropped smoke on the following turn, and I saw the C-47's fly over, but during the following 10 turns or so I never saw any troops. After the game (just finished today) he said his troops never dropped: his guess was that the smoke caused his planes to miss the drop target, and since it was near the map edge the paras never jumped. Anyone have this happen to them?

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- 4/8/2002 9:21:56 AM

Fallschirmjager

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Yep, I was playing Green Devils over something or another and due to heavy fire/incompotence 35% of my foces landed out of the map or didnt drop to avoid going into the water (I was dropping into northern Crete near the north coast).

Whats sad is that it was 3 o'clock in the afternoon as well.

I did manage to take a draw though I took a few easy objectives and beat of british attacks. I would of got a DV if it wasnt for my dumbass pilots.

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- 4/8/2002 9:24:58 AM

tracer

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Well, his move worked in a way: I rushed several units back to guard my VH's and the battle ended in a draw.

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Post #: 28

- 4/9/2002 4:12:59 AM

Capt. Pixel

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Charles_22 - I didn't mean to imply that I expected the ammo to be reloaded twice. Although it appears I may have. :)

Regardless of how many ammo trucks you have supplying your artillery, units that fired at the end of your opponents last turn will be short by that many rounds at the start of your next turn.

If, however, you insure that your barrages are coming in with a 0.0 or 0.1 delay, your ammo trucks will be able to reload spent in the barrage at the end of YOUR turn. Within their capabilities, of course. :) (a 0.2 delay will 'bleed' some shots over to the other players barrage segment)

My point was to illustrate the reload mechanics for those that haven't spent the inordinate time that I have setting up test and watching,counting and verifying these kinds of results. :rolleyes:

This process has been more or less consistent with most recent versions up to 7.0 IMHO.

Haven't tried 7.1 yet - waiting for a tournament to wind down.

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- 4/9/2002 8:03:37 PM

Charles2222

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Capt. Pixel: Oh okay. But in any case, in summarizing, isn't it proper to say that you were basically warning us that if the shells bombarded more than once until the next time you saw the unit, that it would appear as though the trucks weren't keeping with their usual pace? I think part of your argument here has to do with trying to keep the maximum ammo loadout, and of course if a unit is being "oversupplied" it will only say the maximum rounds, but if the unit fires twice (and I'm probably totally wrong on that, but I think what you mean is that the user is diligently looking after every gun's ammo. If a 4 gun battery had 2 guns fire the player turn, then the resupply came, and then 2 fired the enemy turn, you would conclude the supply was working properly; that seems to be what you're saying) and three ammo trucks are resupplying it with at least one round per truck, obviously it's never going to use the 50rds. it started out with; a bit of a waste, but then if you're artillery is prone to fall to HTH barrages, then that's another matter.

The deal with me though, is I rarely notice the ammo amount even when resupplying (actually even less prone to do so then), because I don't expect it to crest the full ammo loadout at any time. In fact, if I had, I would be disappointed because tipping the scales would be wasteful. If 50rds. of ammo gets me through 5 or 6 combat turns (assuming one only bombards then - I don't like to guess unless I'm REALLY overlavish with guns), and that maybe means it lasts till turn 10 (maybe 4-5 turns of no contact), then the most I want out of my ammo trucks is to get the artillery to turn 15, turn 20 at the most. The reason being that the vast majority of the fighting is done by then, at which point the mopping up takes place, which of course often puts my troops in greater danger from my barrages than the enemy. IOW, if around that time, my artillery isn't used up, any excess ammo trucks are a waste since I'm not realy interested in bombarding past that amount of the battle. My ammo trucks are there just to get my artillery to about zero ammo left at that time. One truck per onboard gun suffices. No matter how the battle goes, with onboard artillery that is, the rout is on or the forces are so intermingled there's little purpose to further bombardment, unless there's still enemy onboard to reckon with, which if they're still viable, is unlikely to have too much ammo left anyway. I would never dream of having 3 ammo trucks resupplying one gun because of that reasoning. That would be 200pts excess that could've been spent on 3 PZIVCs. Of course if my one little truck is hit very early on I'll have to struggle a bit, but I just don't see keeping my artillery at it's super-highest the entire time of battle, but then again, I doubt I'd ever use the Wurfs if I ever got to that point of the war. The max. onboard I ever intend to carry are 120mm mortars, but then I think there's nothing larger than that available anyway, until at least some of the SPAs are out. With my plan one truck lasts for 120mm until I basically want them to, but getting to 150mm or larger would probably be a different story. I suppose when onboard stuff like that is available, I will probably make a pass as I'd consider that too much power, unless, of course, I start seeing the AI buying stuff like that, and then all bets are off. Actually, if I'm playing it smart, I ought to run a few different scenarios through the AI. Pick a '44 battle for example, adn if I'm campaigning as the USSR, see if the GE AI picks things over 120mm in onboard artillery, but then again I have to weigh another factor, and that is that the AI doesn't resupply, but, and maybe you've noticed this, but it seems some of his artillery, maybe the onboard stuff, can fire ALL the battle and still have like 30rds. left, although I have seen some 81mm mortars run out for the AI, so I guess that just leaves me really confused overall.

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