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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating?

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Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 1:45:08 PM

CountBrass

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Joined: 7/29/2008
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I'm just curious.

I've noticed a number of postings which are along the lines of "my opponent has done X and I don't know how to respond please tell me what to do!". Now if you're playing against the AI fine, no problem with that. But if you're playing against another person isn't this cheating?

I know that if I was playing any PBEM game and found my opponent trolling for help against me on a forum like this I'd stop the game right away and, if they were a stranger, I'd certainly never play them again.

This seems such an obvious thing, but from the fact that it happens here and no-one else has said anything about it I wonder. Am I wrong? If I was playing chess against someone I wouldn't expect them to keep popping off to ask a group of friends what move they should make next so why would it be acceptable here?

Post #: 1

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 1:50:42 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
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I personally don't think it's cheating, though if you object to it in your PBEM, why don't you just ask your opponent to specifically not do that? Your opponent should respect your wishes.

It takes a long time to learn this game, and a great way to learn is to solicit advice from more experienced players.

PS, the player asking advice on the forum also takes a risk, in that his opponent can read it too.

(in reply to CountBrass)

Post #: 2

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 3:07:24 PM

Charbroiled

Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CountBrass

I'm just curious.

I've noticed a number of postings which are along the lines of "my opponent has done X and I don't know how to respond please tell me what to do!". Now if you're playing against the AI fine, no problem with that. But if you're playing against another person isn't this cheating?

I know that if I was playing any PBEM game and found my opponent trolling for help against me on a forum like this I'd stop the game right away and, if they were a stranger, I'd certainly never play them again.

This seems such an obvious thing, but from the fact that it happens here and no-one else has said anything about it I wonder. Am I wrong? If I was playing chess against someone I wouldn't expect them to keep popping off to ask a group of friends what move they should make next so why would it be acceptable here?

That would be like telling Nimitz that he can not use his staff.

WITP is a monster of a game with lots of techniques and tactics that can be used. It is one thing to ask for advice, it is completely another thing to implement it. The people giving advice usually only have a general view of the situation, and don't know the "complete picture". Therefore, myself, I see nothing wrong with it.

For a successful PBEM game, the game has to be enjoyable for both sides. If I was told that I could not ask for advice when I was getting my butt kicked.....well, I would look at your demands as being petty and obdurate. And, if I was kicking your butt, I would encourage you to solicite advice.

(in reply to CountBrass)

Post #: 3

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 5:17:17 PM

jeffk3510

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Seems reasonable to me to ask for advice....

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 5:38:39 PM

Feltan

Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
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I would not consider it cheating.

The mechanics of the game can be overwhelming to a new player, and simply asking "how" to do something aids the overall game in my opinion.

As for strategy/tactics? I would tell my oppontent to go for it. Any advice will tend to be general in nature anyway -- unlikely he would receive "move this ship here" type of guidance.

Lastly, asking for advice on the forums can not be seen as a sign of strength and confidence -- so I wouldn't be dismayed, I'd take heart that he felt he was getting a thrashing.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to Charbroiled)

Post #: 5

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 5:43:23 PM

Nomad

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I certainly would never consider this cheating. As stated above, this is a huge game and most of us can use some help on occasion. If asking for help is cheating, then reading threads that discuss tactics and stragedy would also be cheating since that is the type of information you will get. Without actually having the turn sent to me I would be hard pressed to give detailed information, but more on the order of look at this or that and try this or that.

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 5:47:40 PM

saj42

Posts: 1125
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From: Somerset, England
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IMO it's not cheating.

HOWEVER, there is a potential issue if both players in a PBEM have AARs running. Whilst one player would never read his opponents AAR, there are very many people here who read both sides of a game (me included). So asking for advice has the potential, however small, that intel could be gained on their opponent - (I'm 100% sure that no-one on these boards would knowingly give intel).

So when asking for advice do it in general terms

(in reply to CountBrass)

Post #: 7

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 7:28:50 PM

niceguy2005

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Asking for advice is the way to learn and I'm not in the game to kick my opponent around. I want them to play the best game they could.

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 8:43:56 PM

khyberbill

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In my first PBEM I was getting my butt kicked and my opponent requested that I seek advice on the forum. He disappeared before I had a chance to ask for help.

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(in reply to CountBrass)

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 8:51:12 PM

Nemo121

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Asking for and listening to advice is all part of the learning process. I not only encourage my opponents to ask for advice from the forum but, if I think they've made a particular error, will do my best to gently point it out to them and discuss why it might be a mistake.... sometimes they have a good reason behind it and there's something I'm not seeing ( and thus I learn ) , other times they've miscalculated ( and they get to learn ).

Its not about winning, its about having your opponent play the best game possible so as to push you as hard as possible since, after all, you really are only playing against yourself when push comes to shove.

(in reply to khyberbill)

Post #: 10

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 9:03:14 PM

VSWG

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For me, chatting about a PBEM (either my own, or in someone's AAR) is half the fun of playing this game.

quote:

I know that if I was playing any PBEM game and found my opponent trolling for help against me on a forum like this I'd stop the game right away and, if they were a stranger, I'd certainly never play them again.

If my opponent told me I'm not allowed to ask the forum for advice then I'd stop the game right away and would never play them again...

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(in reply to Nemo121)

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/30/2008 9:13:22 PM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

For me, chatting about a PBEM (either my own, or in someone's AAR) is half the fun of playing this game.

quote:

I know that if I was playing any PBEM game and found my opponent trolling for help against me on a forum like this I'd stop the game right away and, if they were a stranger, I'd certainly never play them again.

If my opponent told me I'm not allowed to ask the forum for advice then I'd stop the game right away and would never play them again...

Agreed. Nothing would stop the opponent from also asking for help.

_____________________________

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(in reply to VSWG)

Post #: 12

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 1:13:51 PM

CountBrass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I would not consider it cheating.

The mechanics of the game can be overwhelming to a new player, and simply asking "how" to do something aids the overall game in my opinion.

As for strategy/tactics? I would tell my oppontent to go for it. Any advice will tend to be general in nature anyway -- unlikely he would receive "move this ship here" type of guidance.

Lastly, asking for advice on the forums can not be seen as a sign of strength and confidence -- so I wouldn't be dismayed, I'd take heart that he felt he was getting a thrashing.

Regards,
Feltan

But that's the point: the postings I'm referring to aren't general, and neither are the responses. They're of the form "Help Japan has invaded India, here's a map" and the responses are of the form "Move this division to this point, move that air unit there" etc.

General strategy/tactics posts, questions about the games mechanics "I hit his 5 PT boats with 400 FBs and I lost: why?" or "How do I do X" are just fine imo.

(in reply to Feltan)

Post #: 13

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 1:16:53 PM

CountBrass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Asking for advice is the way to learn and I'm not in the game to kick my opponent around.� I want them to play the best game they could.

"[T]he best game *they* could". They, not a committee of the great and the good of this forum. If you wanted to play against the massed brains of these forums why not set up a game like that? I want to play my opponent.

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 14

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 1:17:57 PM

CountBrass

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Joined: 7/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

For me, chatting about a PBEM (either my own, or in someone's AAR) is half the fun of playing this game.

quote:

I know that if I was playing any PBEM game and found my opponent trolling for help against me on a forum like this I'd stop the game right away and, if they were a stranger, I'd certainly never play them again.

If my opponent told me I'm not allowed to ask the forum for advice then I'd stop the game right away and would never play them again...

I don't think we're going to be playing each other are we

(in reply to VSWG)

Post #: 15

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 3:06:42 PM

USSAmerica

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This is one of many things that any PBEM players MUST agree on before investing so much time and effort into a game. Another very key point is knowing that you and your opponent will be able to easily reach an agreement on any dispute, such as this, that might come up after the game is in progress. This part is tough when starting a game with a stranger. I'm playing against someone I "know" from these forums. We're both comfortable that it will be no big deal to work out anything we need to as it comes up.

Find an opponent who wants to play the way you want to play. Then, this type of thing will never be an issue.

_____________________________

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

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(in reply to CountBrass)

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 4:15:34 PM

Feinder

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I can see your point where it could be construed as cheating.

But I think that soliciting the forum's advice has been common-place from the start, and thus folks accept it. It's the same as somebody posting an AAR saying, "that happened to me as well, why don't you try this..."

WitP is so complex and has so many foibles to it, that you learn more by reading the boards, than actually playing the game. And esp when I find out some tid-bit that is purely mechanics, I tend to share these with my opponents (altho I usually learn more from them, than they from me).

-F-

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 5:47:35 PM

Charbroiled

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IRL, every Admiral and General had their own staff that they could garner "suggestions" from. The forums members are a form of this staff. The big differnce here is that the WITP staff (forum members) do not have a complete picture of the situation. Sometime their suggestions may not even be the best course of action, given the whole situation. I have been playing this game for about 4 years, and I still do not know all there is to know about this game and I learn something new almost every time I visit.

I would say the biggest problem with getting advice would be in the situation Tallho was mentioning. People giving advice after reading the other opponent's AAR. To me, that is an ethical problem.

If you venture into PBEM and are concerned about a potential opponent getting advice from the forum, I would suggest that you be very upfront with this opponent at the beginning. As with any House Rule, if this is a concern, bring it out before a lot of time is invested in the game.

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 6:42:28 PM

ny59giants

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I took over in running the economy for the most part for many months with John 3rd game vs Canoerebel. I had just installed WitPTracker and was figuring out how to use it. He had asked if he could send a turn to someone to help. I had played John breifly before, so I took up his offer. This Utility is very useful for the Japanese player. His economy was close to crashing. I was reading both AARs up to that time, but once I became his Economics Minister, I stopped read the other AAR. I only gave economic advise and orders for transports to get him back running and avoided any military advice. It may help that I'm a Mental Health Counselor and am use to ethics. I believe a lot of players got a lot of help on how not to run the Japanese economy and in some ways how to fix it when it goes sour via his AAR. One of the two co-designers of WitPTracker helped (he is now my opponent).

I play this game for two reasons - to have fun and learn. There are plenty of players that know a lot more than I do and I use them to increase my learning. Indirectly it allows me to have more fun in the game.

Just my $.02

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 7:29:24 PM

Nomad

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From: West Yellowstone, Montana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CountBrass

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I would not consider it cheating.

The mechanics of the game can be overwhelming to a new player, and simply asking "how" to do something aids the overall game in my opinion.

As for strategy/tactics? I would tell my oppontent to go for it. Any advice will tend to be general in nature anyway -- unlikely he would receive "move this ship here" type of guidance.

Lastly, asking for advice on the forums can not be seen as a sign of strength and confidence -- so I wouldn't be dismayed, I'd take heart that he felt he was getting a thrashing.

Regards,
Feltan

But that's the point: the postings I'm referring to aren't general, and neither are the responses. They're of the form "Help Japan has invaded India, here's a map" and the responses are of the form "Move this division to this point, move that air unit there" etc.

General strategy/tactics posts, questions about the games mechanics "I hit his 5 PT boats with 400 FBs and I lost: why?" or "How do I do X" are just fine imo.

Be aware that I have seen some where incorrect advice was given in my opinion. So, just because someone gives specific help, there is no guarantee that it is good advice. I have seen a few that were completly wrong and would lead to a worse problem.

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(in reply to CountBrass)

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 8:13:29 PM

vettim89

Posts: 3615
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From: Toledo, Ohio
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I took over in running the economy for the most part for many months with John 3rd game vs Canoerebel. I had just installed WitPTracker and was figuring out how to use it. He had asked if he could send a turn to someone to help. I had played John breifly before, so I took up his offer. This Utility is very useful for the Japanese player. His economy was close to crashing.� I was reading both AARs up to that time, but once I became his Economics Minister, I stopped read the other AAR. I only gave economic advise and orders for transports to get him back running and avoided any military advice. It may help that I'm a Mental Health Counselor and am use to ethics. I believe a lot of players got a lot of help on how not to run the Japanese economy and in some ways how to fix it when it goes sour via his AAR. One of the two co-designers of WitPTracker helped (he is now my opponent).�

I play this game for two reasons - to have fun and learn. There are plenty of players that know a lot more than I do and I use them to increase my learning. Indirectly it allows me to have more fun in the game.

Just my $.02

This was a case of game mechanics vice strategy. The Japanese economy is a very hard part of WitP to master from what I gather. It is one reason I really have no interest in playing the Japanese side. So any Japanese player asking advice on how to run the economy, IMO, is just trying to level the playing field not cheat. Only the Japanese have an economy to run. While having the Japanese economy in the game does allow a player to accomplish more in the game and certainly exploit his/her successes, it is also an enormous burden. I hope Larry seeks advice on running his economy if he feels he is getting bogged down in the game mechanics in our current PBEM. I want to defeat my opponent based on good gameplay not because complex game mechanics overwhelmed him.

As far as strategic advice goes, it's just that: advice. No two games are the same. No two players are going to find themselves in the exact same situation. Ergo, while some one may say "try this" because it worked in my game it does not automatically follow that success will repeatable. So I may ask advice as to a certain situation, but ultimately it is up to me to make the decisions in "MY" game. In my current AAR, several people have chimed in as far as giving me some advice. All of it was good advice but some of the things that have been suggested were not possible to pull off in my game. So while it was good to hear some options, it was up to me to accept or reject these options. If I follwed some one's advice and it leads to a disaster, it is not the advice givers fault, it is mine. Likewise, if I have a major success, while giving credit where credit is due, it would be my execution that leads to the victory not just the good advice

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 7/31/2008 9:29:32 PM

rubisco

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One other point is that the game isn't balanced (and rightly so). In the long run, the game favours the Allied player. So, most players don't play to win and rather play for the experience of this amazing game.

Besides, most advice is sought when players are on the back foot, for example when they've made mistakes or when something unforseen has happened. In many cases, advice prevents a PBEM from ending prematurely, which is ultimately in the interests of both players.

(in reply to vettim89)

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/1/2008 12:30:35 AM

niceguy2005

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From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CountBrass

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Asking for advice is the way to learn and I'm not in the game to kick my opponent around. I want them to play the best game they could.

"[T]he best game *they* could". They, not a committee of the great and the good of this forum. If you wanted to play against the massed brains of these forums why not set up a game like that? I want to play my opponent.

If my opponent felt the need for advise I would have absolutely no problem with him getting lots of it from anyone in the world. Frankly if he were playing a less than optimal game I would prefer he did get help. You asked for opinions. I have told you mine. No it's not cheating. The actual question might be, why do you feel threatened by him collecting opinions.

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/1/2008 12:38:01 AM

Gem35

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From: Dallas, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: CountBrass

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Asking for advice is the way to learn and I'm not in the game to kick my opponent around. I want them to play the best game they could.

"[T]he best game *they* could". They, not a committee of the great and the good of this forum. If you wanted to play against the massed brains of these forums why not set up a game like that? I want to play my opponent.

If my opponent felt the need for advise I would have absolutely no problem with him getting lots of it from anyone in the world. Frankly if he were playing a less than optimal game I would prefer he did get help. You asked for opinions. I have told you mine. No it's not cheating. The actual question might be, why do you feel threatened by him collecting opinions.

I have never played a pbem YET.
When I do, I sure would HOPE and I will ask for help FROM the good forum folks here( and there are some of the best minds I've had the pleasure to learn from)

Not at all cheating, just a friendly nudge just as I would expect my opponent to be able to share and learn from as well.
This is a game for fun, not a real war of life and death.

When ever I play a game against my opponoent I usually ask advice from my friends.
Look at it that way, forum is here as friends and it's smart to listen to advice, does not mean you have to use it or implement it.

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Post #: 24

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/1/2008 12:40:48 PM

Feinder

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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
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quote:

Frankly if he were playing a less than optimal game I would prefer he did get help.

It's amazing how true this statement rings, esp the more games one has under their belts, and/or the longer any game goes on for.

I have no desire to crush my opponent(s), if that were even possible. Playing a game into June 1942 and winning a smashing victory is fun once. But if it happens a third time, it's just wasting your time. I -want- my game(s) to last into 1945. The only way to do that is to keep the game fun for *both* players. The best way to keep it fun, is usually to keep it competitive. If it means house rules, or changing/amending house rules mid-game, or soliciting adivce, or "a mulligan", or even helping my opponent (usually after the fact

), I'd rather the game be "closer for longer" than a (truely) unsurmountable victory early on.

The addage, "You don't learn much until you face somebody better than you" is -VERY- true in WitP. If you've got to crush your opponents time after time, you should probably find somebody more experienced (self-esteem isses being a separate matter). Once you do find that well-matched game, where you -know- you opponent can and will surprise you at any given time, that's when the addiction kicks in, and the real fun begins.

-F-

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/3/2008 7:37:43 AM

JeffroK

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Take out the word " cheating" and take out the hurt in the phrase.

Having seen some of the extremely detailed advice given in some AAR's I would see it as seeking an unfair advantage.

After all, you are playing against your opponent, not a team effort. Any help in a specified area such as japanese logistics, as long as its done openly, would be OK.

Being told what troops and what ships to use in specific attacks is, IMHO, an unfair advantage. Its the same in being told what tactics/strategies an opponent uses in other PBEM.

Its tripe to say its just like using the Admirals/Generals Staff, the computer does that for you. You cant know how they handled the war in another time warp.

If YOU want to play another opponent, go for it, if your opponent isnt up to scratch then they'll be better off learning themselves, with generalised support on the forum.

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Post #: 26

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/3/2008 3:00:30 PM

Feltan

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Ahhh, I wouldn't take such a hard line. Maybe it is just me.

Playing WITP is like an "open book quiz." You can look at the manual, read AAR's and ask for advice -- but the choice is still up to the guy making the decisions.

I suppose, in some extreme conditions, one could be upset about it. But quite frankly I'd be more concerned about how fast my opponent was able to send turns rather than who may be assisting.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to JeffroK)

Post #: 27

RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/5/2008 8:14:46 AM

laien607

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I believe it is NOT cheating! Of course you can seek your own help

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RE: Asking for help with a specific PBEM game is cheating? - 8/5/2008 8:23:20 AM

thegreatwent

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From: Denver, CO
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In this game just reading the manual is not enough. IMO asking for help is not only OK but can add to the whole communities development.

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