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Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 6:56:17 AM   
joe_canadian

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		I currently play GGAWD, and am really happy with it. Just wondering what other peoples favourite WWII Grand Stratigy Game is. Give a reason Why too!

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 10:04:22 AM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		World in Flames, without the shadow of a doubt. It is not yet available on the computer but will be soon enough.

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Post #: 2
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 12:02:57 PM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

World in Flames, without the shadow of a doubt. It is not yet available on the computer but will be soon enough.


a slight hitch in the plans for a december release

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 2:37:34 PM   
Grell

 

Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Norm Koger's "The Operational Art of War III" available here at Matrix. The game covers more than just WWII as well.

Regards,

Greg

P.S. It's more of an operational style game.

< Message edited by Grell -- 8/4/2008 2:39:26 PM >

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 3:28:49 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
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Status: offline 		what Capitan said, no doubt about it

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 3:32:28 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joe_canadian

I currently play GGAWD, and am really happy with it. Just wondering what other peoples favourite WWII Grand Stratigy Game is. Give a reason Why too!

Just like tha Academy Awards, Best transcends many levels of wargaming. I recently dug out my old copy of SC:European Theater, modded the map graphics and I am enjoying it very much. It has it's flaws, but it also has plenty of flavor and a relatively decent AI. For me it's the best grand stategy game that you can complete in a few hours.

Never purchased SC2 only because it is sugly, fugly and bugly. I prefer the non isometric look of SC1:




Attachment (1)

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 4:05:37 PM   
105mm Howitzer


Posts: 447
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Honestly can't say I got an all time favorite. Everytime I think I've found THE grand strategy game, somrthing else comes along and screws it all up. So I've decided I love em all...

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 4:45:09 PM   
Greybriar


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline 		Like simovitch, I have found Strategic Command - European Theatre to be a very enjoyable game. There's no tedious and time-consuming micromanagement to take away from the game play.

But there are many, many other titles out there. A lot of them are more recent than this one, and most of them I haven't played. I would be interested in seeing which ones are other gamers' favorites. So I thank you for starting this thread, joe_canadian.

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 5:02:26 PM   
joe_canadian

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		I also play stratgic command, your map mod looks great btw.  Another great game.

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/4/2008 11:27:46 PM   
Gem35


Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		War in the Pacific
Great game, played it more than any game I ever purchased.
Plenty of micro-management and the game is so very long.
One day game turns that span the entire war from that fateful day in December 1941 through mid 1946.
More bang for your buck than any game I bought.

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 2:47:42 AM   
panzers

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline 		When it does come out, Joe, you will see that WiF is truly going to be the grandaddy of all war games for many years to come. You start playing this one and you will never be asking this question again

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Post #: 11
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 2:56:27 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
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From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		If WiF fails us I fear all hope is lost...
We are done for...



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Post #: 12
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 4:11:16 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		SC is very fun, but much as I played a lot of it when it first came out, the lack of realism eventually got to me and I had to set it aside. Playing against another human just really broke the system for me. As far as that type of game goes, I think CEAW is a good successor to SC as far as great fun factor, better looks but more realism, as is SC2. GGAWD is a great and realistic grand strategy game and having the entire globe to deal with simply makes it that much better as well. The new WW2 RTV is just getting started, but is a good game at a more detailed scale with great potential and some nice innovations.

World in Flames of course, once that is finished, will be the ultimate WWII Grand Strategy title, but it will also require a WITP-level commitment, so it's in a totally different ballpark than something like SC. Right now I'd have to say that the best overall is probably GGAWD for global scale and realistic outcomes, but each of the games has its strengths and every one of them is pretty darn fun as well. We've had a lot of luck with casual "Panzer General" wargamers getting engaged with CEAW, for example and at the same time the hard core crowd just can't wait for MWIF to be released. If you're into WW2 Grand Strategy, you'll get your money's worth from pretty much every game on the market right now.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 4:23:38 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If you're into WW2 Grand Strategy, you'll get your money's worth from pretty much every game on the market right now.

Ah, Erik, where would this hobby be without you?

I remember a managing editor I worked for once upon a time telling me that we needed to update a particular set of four books. "I want the new set to sell as six books," he said. I blinked once, swallowed, and asked, "Do you want more subjects covered, more detail, or what?"

He responded, "I want more money. Now get to work."

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 4:49:12 AM   
joe_canadian

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		I have been looking at the Wif forum alot.  It seems like it will be an amazingly deep game, and daunting game! Hopefully i will have the funds/time to try it.

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 5:04:46 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Ah, Erik, where would this hobby be without you?
I remember a managing editor I worked for once upon a time telling me that we needed to update a particular set of four books. "I want the new set to sell as six books," he said. I blinked once, swallowed, and asked, "Do you want more subjects covered, more detail, or what?"
He responded, "I want more money. Now get to work."


Heh - great story. The thing is though, I really do mean it and good wargaming is more important to me than good money (or I wouldn't be doing this). For example, if I were a customer, I'd have bought them all and enjoyed some a bit more than others, but I don't dislike any of 'em and each has some things the others don't.

It's like the three ACW Grand Strategy games we have in our catalog now. I've played each of them and they're all great - when people ask which to get, if they have very specific features they want it's usually possible to steer them towards one but otherwise I say get 'em all because they're all fun. The OP's question was about as non-specific as possible, so there you go.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 5:29:41 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Heh - great story. The thing is though, I really do mean it and good wargaming is more important to me than good money (or I wouldn't be doing this). For example, if I were a customer, I'd have bought them all and enjoyed some a bit more than others, but I don't dislike any of 'em and each has some things the others don't.

It's like the three ACW Grand Strategy games we have in our catalog now. I've played each of them and they're all great - when people ask which to get, if they have very specific features they want it's usually possible to steer them towards one but otherwise I say get 'em all because they're all fun. The OP's question was about as non-specific as possible, so there you go.


I'd buy all that. Once MWiF is released you would have to be crazy to not be able to find at least one perfect WWII Grand Strategy Game in the Matrix Catalog no matter who you are. Perhaps the same is true for ACW Games.

But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII. Where are my 6 choices there?!?! Lock 'n Load comes closer to completing a minimum lineup but still, based on WWII Grand Strategy Counts you should have 3 or 4 similar tactical titles like that by now...

Now get to work on fixing that!

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 5:54:17 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3989
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor


[But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII.




The Campaign Series doesn't fit that bill? Are you looking for squad size units?

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 5:56:19 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
The thing is though, I really do mean it and good wargaming is more important to me than good money

See what I mean? You're the greatest, Erik.


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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 6:33:09 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor


[But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII.




The Campaign Series doesn't fit that bill? Are you looking for squad size units?


To clarify... Yeah ASL, Lock'n Load, Steel Panthers, Combat Leader type stuff...

In almost 10 years we have half a dozen NEW WWII Grand Strategy Games (Not even remakes) yet basically not a single turn-based Squad Level WWII game.

The Campaign Series doesn't count either way.. i had that decades ago and I want something new for my money

Whatever the 3D tactical title was had too confusing an interface for my apparantly inferior wargamming intelect to comprehend. I'm jealous if others are enjoying it.

I've no game at all to play in that category. It's so sad really. I still cry out for ASL some nights . If only Matrix would finally rescue me from that by finishing Lock'n Load and other WWII Tactical Games...

On the original note it will be interesting to see how many people actually buy MWiF... I get this awful feeling like only those who have knowledge of the board game will buy it. Though I've owned hundreds if not a thousand board games.. I never owned or played that one... My loss I'm sure but I wonder how much harder it will be to learn it... to risk money on it... and to spend the $100+ people are talking about.

I can completely understand though. Having played ASL I'd pay $250 easily for a faithful PC conversion. But try getting the non-initiated to even consider that...

No, I think its going to have to be $70-$80 at an extreme to have any chance. But who knows.. I guess if its really perfect upon release they could garner $99 out of me.. I still don't see $100+ though, unless it was some sort of collectors edition with a cloth map and what not

From my selfish perspective I can think of all kinds of things it should have (learning tutorials to teach at least 50% of the rules and not just bare bones basics, strategy guide to give newbies some clue how to proceed, toggles to turn off ridiculously mundane and monatenous micromanagement tasks to make the game play faster, etc.) but given how extremely complicated the game is in the first place I'll drop all requirements and just ask for a mostly bug-free Vista-capable game that I can actually play before this time next year.

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 8:05:07 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		+1 Veldor

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 9:20:55 AM   
panzers

 

Posts: 635
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

If WiF fails us I fear all hope is lost...
We are done for...



Veldor. I don't lmow that you have looked at the WiF forum, but if you did, I don't think you would have much doubt that this project is being as done as professionally as you will ever see a game desigm. What makes this game so unique is he has assembled some of the hardest core WiF players from all over the world to help him on this projrct. I highly suggest you go to that forum and and take a look see what is going on in there. To say there are things going on in there that us unique to all of matrix's gaming is a terrible understatement. The game itself had been around close to 25 years now and it is aleays getting updated. It is withought question outside of maybe the ASL games the most intensly complicated game of all time., and the people who play this game religiously have put in a lot of their time to assist Steve in getting this out around Christmastime. Never in all my years of game playing have I seen such intense attention to detail. This game when it comes out will be the most heavily researched game by far ever in the history of the gaming industry because we have a worldeide fraternity that is stopping at nothing to ensure thuis thing comes out right and the first time. There will eventually be several add ons later but for now, we have so many volinteers helping Steve out in this project because we, more than anyone know what is at stake here. And what is at stake is something that should make WiTP like a monopoly game compared to this one. I don't know ghow many counters are in WiTP, but In MWiF there will be over 8600 of them, and that is not even close to be all of them. If you were to read all the pages of the game itself, it would be in excess of a thousanf pages when you factor in all the expansions that can come with it If you were to compare the two, then think of it this way, Everything you get in WiTP you pretty much get in MWiF, except you have to add the same complexity and detail the the entire world map, and as we all know, the european sector was much more complex tham the pacific. So everything is going to work out just fine. they have assembled the best team you could possibly have for a wargame such as this and everyone is working so well together. It is actually quite extrairdinary and being put together in a way that no game ever has done before. So keep the faith. This one is the real deal and If you were to look at all the postings on the WiF forim, you will probably rest a lot easier that this game is being put together the right way. It's nice to know that we have people who jave played this game, some of them for all 25 years, so they know all the nuiances of the game and that is a great help to Steve over there in matrix games
I will be taking several pictures of the upcaming con starting this weekend and will try to post them daily so that you can see what goes on in these games.
We're looking at about 30 to 50 people from all over the world to be at this convention, so that will mean 6 - 10 tables of games going on at once.

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 9:21:02 AM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

My loss I'm sure but I wonder how much harder it will be to learn it... to risk money on it... and to spend the $100+ people are talking about.


Well, that is the thing I find to be Matrixgames' best sell point. If you have a problem, come to the forum and you will get help. Hey you will not even be called n00b!

And MWiF will have tutorials that should explain everything you need and hopefully then some.
It's gonna be sweet.


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Post #: 23
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 11:58:24 AM   
HansBolter


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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

When it does come out, Joe, you will see that WiF is truly going to be the grandaddy of all war games for many years to come. You start playing this one and you will never be asking this question again



Perhaps, but the problem remains that we may never live to see it. It must certainly hold the record for the longest time in development.

Besides, I have yet to be convinced. From my perspective it never caught on with my boardgame group who played foure other gmaes in it's genre to death: Third Reich, WWII, ETO/PTO and Krieg. We just never found WIF to measure up to the others.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 8/5/2008 12:00:26 PM >

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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 12:04:18 PM   
Tagwyn

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline 		Soon? What means soon? Been waiting for this even forever? L3

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Post #: 25
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 12:19:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
But what's still clearly lacking to me is my all-time favorite.... Turn-Based Tactical WWII. Where are my 6 choices there?!?! Lock 'n Load comes closer to completing a minimum lineup but still, based on WWII Grand Strategy Counts you should have 3 or 4 similar tactical titles like that by now...


Hm - Steel Panthers: World at War, John Tiller's Campaign Series, Panzer Command are the top three in the turn-based tactical WWII category. The first two are classics, the third is an entirely new 3D effort and all IMHO are great games. Have you tried all of those?




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Post #: 26
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 3:09:48 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

...I think CEAW is a good successor to SC as far as great fun factor, better looks but more realism, as is SC2.


I downloaded the demo - it definitely has more graphic appeal than any of the others in it's genre and will probably be my next purchase.


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RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/5/2008 7:40:11 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:


I've no game at all to play in that category. It's so sad really. I still cry out for ASL some nights . If only Matrix would finally rescue me from that by finishing Lock'n Load and other WWII Tactical Games...

On the original note it will be interesting to see how many people actually buy MWiF... I get this awful feeling like only those who have knowledge of the board game will buy it. Though I've owned hundreds if not a thousand board games.. I never owned or played that one... My loss I'm sure but I wonder how much harder it will be to learn it... to risk money on it... and to spend the $100+ people are talking about.

I can completely understand though. Having played ASL I'd pay $250 easily for a faithful PC conversion. But try getting the non-initiated to even consider that...

No, I think its going to have to be $70-$80 at an extreme to have any chance. But who knows.. I guess if its really perfect upon release they could garner $99 out of me.. I still don't see $100+ though, unless it was some sort of collectors edition with a cloth map and what not

From my selfish perspective I can think of all kinds of things it should have (learning tutorials to teach at least 50% of the rules and not just bare bones basics, strategy guide to give newbies some clue how to proceed, toggles to turn off ridiculously mundane and monatenous micromanagement tasks to make the game play faster, etc.) but given how extremely complicated the game is in the first place I'll drop all requirements and just ask for a mostly bug-free Vista-capable game that I can actually play before this time next year.

I'm not privy to inside info re price (if there even is any yet) but more than $100 sounds unlikely.

About learning MWiF...

1. There will be extensive tutorials, designed to help newbies into MWiF. Some already exist so if you're keen you can start now. Extensive strategy guides for the boardgame exist and will basically be relevant but I'm sure strategy guides will be included.

2. It'll be easier to learn than the boardgame. So much stuff will be done for you that you'll be able to concentrate on the core mechanics (which will be pretty familiar to most wargamers anyway).

3. Apart from the automated rule checking and book-keeping, much of the complication is confined to the end of turns and is stepped through sequentially and logically. Again, the CPU will do most of the work here.

4. I learned board World in Flames by myself and it was only my second wargame. Now, it took some effort but I'm no genius, so with your experience I wouldn't worry at all. Most of the game is taken up with phases (a wave of Axis, then Allied movement) of grand operational manoeuvring that, due to the sheer scale of the game, has a strangely "tactical" feel.

For the above reasons and since it's such a faithful conversion of a tried and true and award-winning boardgame, I don't think there's much risk. I've never seen such attention to detail in game development. Playtesting should be extensive, as it has been occurring on the working components for many months, with Steve gradually fixing bugs and fleshing out the game.

There will be automatic settings to reduce micro-management and because of the mostly corps-level/air-fleet/capital ship (or flotilla of smaller vessels) scale, the number of potential units to move is not ludicrously high.

I don't want to break this page so hit this link for a bit of an example of this...hopefully

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=915054&mpage=43&key=#

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 28
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 12:21:15 AM   
GJK


Posts: 554
Joined: 7/17/2004
Status: offline 		As mentioned elsewhere, I'm beta testing Computer War in Europe II (Decision Games) and am really impressed with what that will offer. What it doesn't offer however is an AI. It will be an excellent Pbem program though (and solo of course). I'm also very much looking forward to MWiF. I have some iteration of the boardgame but never had the chance to learn to play it. I will be very interested to see if an AI can even be programmed for something on such a grand scale that will provide a decent game (or if it will be more for learning the game and then when you want to really "play" you play against another human).

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Post #: 29
RE: Best WWII Grand Stratigy Game - 8/6/2008 2:58:27 AM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		Witp hands down.  If you go with global, then it would be GGWAWD.

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