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RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 11:34:54 AM   
Krasny

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 7/3/2003
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quote:

It's pretty simple people : stop buying DRM'ed software and they'll give in. Look at what happened in the music industry : All major publishers now have DRM-free music, because consumers just stopped buying the DRM infected songs.


Never a truer word spoken.

I would go even further by saying that the music industry is killing music, by constantly spewing forth manufactured drivel.



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Post #: 31
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 11:48:02 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: orwell
I couldn't speak for all games on Gamersgate, but it's ridiculously easy to install, patch game, and put the game folder on a disc or flash drive for every Paradox Interactive game I've tried, including their latest titles.


Here's a very easy test : take your backup and try to install it on a computer which has no internet access. If it works, you've bought a game, if it doesn't you've clearly rented one for as long as the publisher's activation server is up.

I like to own the stuff I pay for.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to orwell)
Post #: 32
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 1:55:38 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

quote:

It's pretty simple people : stop buying DRM'ed software and they'll give in. Look at what happened in the music industry : All major publishers now have DRM-free music, because consumers just stopped buying the DRM infected songs.


Never a truer word spoken.

I would go even further by saying that the music industry is killing music, by constantly spewing forth manufactured drivel.



I wouldn't dispute your last, but your analogy regarding DRM is incorrect. The reason people got so pissed with DRM in music (the honest ones, anyway) was lack of inter-operability. Not unreasonably, the general consensus was that if you paid for it (once) you should be able to do what you like with it, i.e. if you paid it on iTunes you should be able to store on a HD, burn to a disk or DVD, play it on your non-iPod music player or move it to a future format. With PC software the same doesn't apply as it only works with one piece of kit - a PC. The publisher, and hence their server, going tits-up is a different issue.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 8/7/2008 1:56:47 PM >

(in reply to Krasny)
Post #: 33
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 2:34:10 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
With PC software the same doesn't apply as it only works with one piece of kit - a PC. The publisher, and hence their server, going tits-up is a different issue.


Yes and no - you do want to install that game on another piece of kit : your new pc after the previous one died or after an upgrade. It's then you find out DRM is not such a good idea after all.

For a very recent example :

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77890

Do you think that guy has learned his lesson now ?

And for every guy like that who's learning it the hard way there are dozens who read that thread and get the message as well. So, ok, DRM in the music world is not 100% comparable to what's happening in the gaming world, but I think we'll see the same evolution here.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 34
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 5:12:10 PM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Yes and no - you do want to install that game on another piece of kit : your new pc after the previous one died or after an upgrade. It's then you find out DRM is not such a good idea after all.



And, as I said in my first post on this subject that, doing exactly that with my Stardock games (GalCiv plus 2 and SoaSE) was an absolute breeze using their system. No problems with Gamersgate (the EU3, CK and Vicky expansions) either. It is not DRM or copy protection in general that is the problem, it is those systems that are poorly implemented with little or no thought for the honest purchaser that are the problem.


< Message edited by Hertston -- 8/7/2008 5:13:32 PM >

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 35
RE: Harpoon - 8/7/2008 10:46:09 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2614
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum


quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Also, there's a question of forced patches - sometimes there are patches that make a game less playable/less realistic or even more buggy.


Sounds like you're a Harpoon ANW player...

It's good to know that we don't suffer this problem alone.

I didn't play Harpoon ANW (I only "played" Harpoon Classic '97), but I've read about that patch and it made me aware that some patches can be unwanted. It and one indie cRPG game that I bought that had a patch which added some new features, but wasn't tested properly and crawled even on high end computers (the game had graphics like Baldur's Gate).

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's.



...

KILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ugh...
I remember them.
I still have a matt black & shiny black code book from Alien Breed: Tower Assault.
Also, Ultima VII was pretty bad with it. I bought a classic edition of it and couldn't finish it, because it didn't have all game manuals on CD...

Personally, I liked the Interplay's protection schemes from 1997-1998 the best. Fallout, Die By The Sword...
I installed them without writing any codes and still I have Fallout full install from 2006 that survived 3 Windows re-installations and doesn't require me to keep my CD in drive.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 8/7/2008 10:48:57 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/7/2008 11:31:07 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's. But that didn't install intrusive software shells onto people's systems. Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.


The one I remember always seemed to be a few words off.

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Post #: 37
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/8/2008 1:26:15 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		While we are on that topic, sadly I found out the horrors last year when being forced to upgrade to Vista.  Many of my games won't work, even the newer ones.  I at first thought it was due to typical MS non-compatibility issues, but after many searches on help forums etc. I found out most the problems are due to copy protection issues.

It seems that a lot of copy protection systems are HARD-CODED to the OS.  So when you upgrade the OS, you are sh!t out of luck.  Sometimes, even having the same OS, but a newer patched version of that OS is enough to break the protection system and you are again sh!t out of luck.  So... the only way I've had any luck lately is by numerous visits to game-copy world and the like.  I must say, it's been quite an experience, but unfortuantely it takes time to try and figure ways around to get my own stuff out of the box to run!  If I have another 5 hours of time to waste, then maybe I can get my SCRAPLAND to install, but that time should be time playing, not figuring out how to crack my own games!



(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 38
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/8/2008 2:58:19 AM   
orwell

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 11/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Orwell, I use Gamersgate also for titles I can't get elsewhere. However, I see Eddies point. There is no guarantee the servers will be around in the future.

Also, I've looked at what Gamersgate downloads onto your drive...have you ever tried to reinstall from those downloads? I couldn't see how...ended up deleting the directory and downloading again. Can't remember what title it was...I think it was Combat Mission: Shock Force


You know, I never have actually. After I've installed the game, I just make zips of the folder so I have a back up to try mods or modding with, and a back up in case anything goes wrong, or I want to migrate it to my other computer.

Sterckxe - by this definition, I've bought the game. I don't even need a cd-key to get it running if I ever want to play again. If I put this backup onto a flash drive, and put that onto a computer that meets the requirements, I can play the game on any computer wherever that meets the system requirements. I'm not installing or distributing it, because everything is self-contained on the flash drive I own.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 39
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/8/2008 7:39:38 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: orwell
If I put this backup onto a flash drive, and put that onto a computer that meets the requirements, I can play the game on any computer wherever that meets the system requirements.


A lot of "ifs" - have you ever tried it ?

You know - tomorrow your motherboard may burn and your HD might crash - I've never lost a game due to those (both things happened to me in the past) because I never buy DRM'ed software but you only have to read other forums to know how often this happens.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to orwell)
Post #: 40
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/11/2008 6:40:25 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston
What he said. To be honest, though, I'm starting to come around regarding some forms of protection when they are actually designed to make life convenient for the customer as well. The Stardock system is pretty good in that regard, and was very handy when I was populating a new PC recently. Just name and password and a few button clicks, no fannying about with disks and patches.


Yup - and then Stardock folds, the server will be shut down and you'll be left with ?

I'm very wary of any system I can't totally control myself. Right now I'm pretty sure that in 2030 I will still be able to install Conquest of the Aegean on WindozeSuperDeluxe2028 in Vista compatibility mode irrespective of the fact if Matrix Games is by then still around or not.

Nothing lasts forever, not even companies like Avalon Hill, 360 Pacific, Talonsoft - or more recently MadMinuteGames.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


And as if to confirm your superior knowledge...

I bought a download of Armed Assault when it came out from a company called Sprocket (online download). I was given an "installer" which, when clicked, connected and downloaded the game. One problem I had quite some time ago was that because two patches had been downloaded and installed, the game thought you had used your downloads and stopped it being played!

I had to go without playing it for the weekend and have the hassle of contacting them.

On another note, the same system...

I have tried to clieck the Sprocket downloader they game me, but it just sits there, saying it's connecting. I went to my emails from them and used the link they sent in the past, again, no web page.

So I went on the Sporcket website and tried to login....low and behold it has no record of my email address...the email address I've had for several years (wayyyyy before I bought this game...so it IS the email address I would've used to get the game.

So now I have to jump through a shed load of hoops again in order to get my game.

No thanks. That's it for me. No Steam. No downloaders. No online activation. No starforce.

It's bad enough that you waste your good money finding out that a crap game is crap...but to have to jump through the hoops that you have to, as a legitimate purchaser....no way.

I'm done with them. They want to protect their games and films and music so bad that they push me away...more fool them.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 41
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/16/2008 12:29:03 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thought I'd give this interesting thread a continue.  It motivated me to finally crack that SCRAPLAND game of mine, and it runs just fine now on Vista.  (Thank you gamecopy world!).

Now if I can somehow win a few more races, I'll have her pretty much coming to a close.  It makes me feel good actually, as I also ended up FINALLY finishing off that UNDYING game that's also been kicking around for ages.  It's ammazing how much time you can finally get when your internet goes offline for a month. 

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 42
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/21/2008 8:02:48 AM   
Cmdrcain


Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline 		With all the games I've used, Bought,installed from 1980's on, one thing about Copy Protections is that theresalways a way around.

In the 80-90's most any could be gotten around with like CopyPc and other programs.

With over internet DRM's they still can probably be broken
just a matter of cracking how the games auth

So theres really no point in all this copy protection, not even Matrix's serial number system, all they do is in end drive off customers when they cannot re-install their software and i also question if some copy prots are legal,
if it prevents archival backing up, as a few schemes do...as in preventing one from Making a Cdrom/Dvd copy of the game CD you buy, that could be in itself be a violation of at least US Copy write laws which give legal right to make archival copys...preventing it may void the underlying copy write.







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(in reply to Obsolete)
Post #: 43
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/21/2008 8:20:21 AM   
Greybriar


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/9/2007
Status: offline 		There is an old saying that locks keep honest people honest.

I feel the same line of reasoning can be applied to the copy protection on PC games. Sooner or later someone will crack any copy protection regardless of how sophisticated it is. So why bother having some high tech copy protection scheme that seems only to frustrate the legitimate owners of the games? I've seen some pretty botched up copy protection schemes in my day and have been victimized by a few. The end result? I don't buy the games from that particular publisher or developer anymore and everyone loses when that happens.

Locks are simple for the most part, and even the most basic lock deters crime. So should software copy protection.

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Post #: 44
RE: Copy protection/DRM - 8/21/2008 11:07:54 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain
So theres really no point in all this copy protection, not even Matrix's serial number system,


The beauty of the serial number system as employed by Matrix is that if you're a legitimate user you can reinstall your game at infinitum, but if you got that serial number from some warez website you'll find out that though you can install the base game, it won't allow you to install the patches, resulting in an inferior game experience as compared to the regular, honest customer.

With DRM systems it's the reverse : the legitimate, honest customer has to jump through hoops, while the pirate with the cracked game doesn't.

Personally I like a system that punishes the dishonest, while not bothering the honest at all and Matrix serial number system does just that.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Cmdrcain)
Post #: 45
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